Modern surface units

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Karl Heidenreich
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Modern surface units

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

This is a question, not an opinion: :cool:

Not considering the CVNs, do modern surface units (frigates, destroyers, cruisers) are really worth for combat roles?
The modern submarine fleets and the naval aircraft units are so powerfull and sophisticated that make me believe that a surface unit is almost defenseless against an attack from any of them, a sitting duck almost. I´m speaking of real combat between naval units, not shore-troop support, etc. but real combat against subs, AA, CVNs, etc.

What do you think about it? :think:
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Gary
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Post by Gary »

Hi Karl.

I believe that the days of big sea battles are over.
Destroyers/Frigates seem to be used to stop and search ships to check if they are carrying anything illegal (drugs etc).

The real striking power comes from the aircraft of the CVN's.
The sub fleet provides the nuclear deterrent
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Terje Langoy
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Post by Terje Langoy »

Wouldn't this also be a question of effective counter-measures? A frigate carries anti-sub measures, air defence measures and, something of which effectiveness I'm very uncertain of, counter-missile measures. The vessel seems to me as a subordinate as technology is the decisive factor. Who has the better systems? For instance, the Nansen-frigates are, as I've learned, supposed to carry measures needed to counter these threats. But then again, the frigate/destroyer wouldn't be a natural spearhead of any attack, I guess. A patrol craft, able to defend itself, would perhaps be a proper assignation of the frigate? I dont know...

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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Well, I believe that a combat between "frigate navies", as Tom Clancy refer to them, would match which contender possess the best technology. But I doubt that a surface unit, no matter how well equiped she is, can face a sub or aerial threat.
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Gary
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Post by Gary »

No country in the world even comes close to matching the USN in terms of "sea power" today
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Gary:
No country in the world even comes close to matching the USN in terms of "sea power" today
Gary, you´re right, but for how long?
Western Powers had been historical quite negligent with maintaining their supremacy. Look at Great Britain some fifteen years before WWI: nobody match them, but Germany aproached, quite dangerously, to the limit that the World War was inevitable. And look what the US and GB did just before WWII: they let the nazis, the japanese and the russians to become all-powerfull. And, still, after that the US let Stalin the butcher to become a nuclear superpower when from 1945-1949 they had the chance to knock him out without any sweat.
I doubt that nowadays China would like the idea of being a second-class power that had Taiwan laughing at her face only a few miles across a strait. They have their own weapons programe, much more inteligent than that of the former USSR, and when they be ready to strike they´ll do it. Thinking that US is invulnerable is just wishfull thinking. And not because their soldiers and techonlogy are not the best, but because their leaders and common people are not prepared to do what is necesary in order to survive. That´s why Osama is still alive and the criminal muslim fanatics are gonna win in Irak.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Gary
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Post by Gary »

Hi Karl
That´s why Osama is still alive
I hope one day he is found and the USAF drop a Daisy cutter on his head.

The only fleet that could match the modern USN was the soviet fleet.
That is now long gone.
I believe the French fleet is now larger than the Royal Navy.
The modern Royal navy doesnt have the large empire to protect that the navy of old did.
Nonetheless, the royal navy has slipped a long way down the pecking order.
God created the world in 6 days.........and on the 7th day he built the Scharnhorst
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Terje Langoy
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Post by Terje Langoy »

Hi, Karl.

I don't consider the frigate as a "fully-fledged" attack weapon but kind of a patrol unit. She can deliver a punch if she has to but no full-scale attack and she'll do better running when the company gets to big. A plane or two can be dealt with, so could a sub. The development of sonar and radar systems have progressed along with everything else. But then again, I talk of counter measures as in defence of the ship while you perhaps talk of an active combatant role. In that case, I don't know. I'll have to ask: how well equipped is the CV against a sub threat? Maybe this is where the frigate enter the picture? Escorts of a carrier?

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Post by Bgile »

I think a Burke class destroyer has tremendous offensive and defensive capability. It could reduce any WWII ship to wreckage in a matter of minutes, and probably any current competitor as well.

A determined air attack could sink one, but at some cost. It would have to be a determined attack by a number of aircraft., and incoming missiles might easily be jammed, spoofed, or shot down.

Submarine attack is hard to quantify. The most difficult opponent would probably be a modern submarine lying in wait. The submarine might die to the ship’s helo, though. Also, the submarine’s weapon might get spoofed or jammed or simply miss.

http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... tml#burke9
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Post by Summoner »

In the hypothetical "one-on-one" battles we all love to throw around in the other forum, the sub easily wins hands down in most cases. It enjoys the tactical advantage of stealth, something that no surface ship can totally achieve (though some are now becoming almost invisible to radar, I hear). I think Captain Morgan has the quote of the definition between a hunter and a target, with the sub being the hunter, and anything that cannot match the sub's capability the target.

However, in real-world situations, the balance is a little more even than one might think. Subs are not invulnerable by any means. They are still prone to active sonar pings, and a typical CV battle group will have quite a few ships capable of active sonar, as well as passive sonar and towed arrays. Extend the range of that sonar using helicopters, and you can see how difficult it might be for subs to get within undeniably lethal range.

With a battle group also comes countermeasures of many types which I am not qualified to describe. Granted, these countermeasures are not perfect by any means, but you can begin to see how the offensive and defensive capabilities of submarines and surface ships can balance each other to some extent. I believe it all comes down to how many ships of each type you have on each side, as well as positioning and tactics.

As far as the usefulness of surface ships such as frigates and destroyers, they tend to serve more of a defensive role these days, protecting the carriers and acting as interceptors. However, they can also serve in an NSFS role, though not in the traditional BB sense (think TLAMs).
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