Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

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Nelson Ott
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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by Nelson Ott » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:36 pm

Bill wrote: you can ask Sao Paulo crew about that [...] The point is when France stop use a ship, the normal reasonable next owner shall be a museum for almost all case!
Gotcha !! So rather than sending it to a museum, you "pushed" it to a friendly country, promising it would be fully refurbished and perfectly operational ... :? And, quite frankly, it was not so cheap as you pals are pointing up. This was not an ethical attitude to a friendly country, and I hope the same kind of attitude is not going to be found on the Rafale or the submarine business.

Just as a sidenote, the Minas Gerais aircraft carrier (ex-HMS Vengeance) was also bought secondhand and it provided many years of reliable operation. And many former US vessels as well, even though our navy maintenance was not so good as it is today.

As for "asking the São Paulo crew", I'd rather ask the families of the crewmen killed by the explosion of the vapor system...

I agree with ostriker, examples of unreliability can be found everywhere. My point is: please do not praise a supposed better reliability of French gear, simply because, as noted before in this topic, they are not better nor worse than the other's.

Regards to all,

Nelson

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Bill
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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by Bill » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:04 am

sincerely sorry for the crew killed in the vapor system's, I don't know about

about my praise after reliability, I was slightly to far, (thinked ironical humor in fact), oof course, how a 40 year stuff can work properly, whatever he's origins.
I was just upset myself about the general jugment I see on this forum about french products, no more, no less


I mention I worked on a logistic ship, it was the Rhone, decomissioned in 97, after 35 years service.
in two years time we get water floading in electrical room, a tropical storm get on pier because we wasn't abble to take sea, the motors was out of service. teh sea-water pipe fore fire extinguishion leackage was artisticly cover by steel can came from cofe-can, fix by electrical serre-flex....

but on the same time, I see a german logistic ship came together with the Lubeck get also maintenance problems, and a british frigate get fire in engine room in Barbados.
the Jamaican fleet was not abble to participate on exercize with french frigate Ventose
- Well sir, please agree with me that you other, French, you fight for monnay, whenn us, british, fight for the honnor !
- Of course sir, but you know, everybody fight for what he's leack !
Robert Surcouf, French Corsair, 1773-1827


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Bgile
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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by Bgile » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:46 am

I think it's common for the USN to have 40 or 50 year old ships in commission. Heck, we have bombers that old.

The older ships do get major yard rebuilds if they are to be kept in service that long.

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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by ostriker » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:16 pm

Nelson Ott wrote:
I agree with ostriker, examples of unreliability can be found everywhere. My point is: please do not praise a supposed better reliability of French gear, simply because, as noted before in this topic, they are not better nor worse than the other's.
That's the point.

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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by RF » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:33 am

Even I suppose, with the Bismarck......
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Bill
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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by Bill » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:54 pm

hello

I back from few days Hollydays, was in Quingdao and Yintai, ~150km east of Quingdao

I think at our topics there, you can figure it ?!
I visits in Yintai a chinese destroyer, well, completly wreck, you can see accross the decks across the chimney, accross everythings, but not the windows !
well, it was the "103" don't know the chinese name !
build in 1938 in CCCP, give to China PRC in 1950, decomissioned in.... 1988 !
similar ship stay as museum in Dalian, name "ANSHAN"
China have a cheap way to made museum !
put the destroyer on the sand, made a way on it, with a gate sale 1 euros ticket, and wait the needed times for the ship disapears by hymself, completly rost !
for be honnest, because it was a real wreck and the toilets was to dirty, after a real urge, I depose my shit in what was the command deck, near the captain sit.
:oops:
Anyway, for back on our topics :whistle:

US Ship meet a real building at middle life. maybe not all of them, but at least the carrier. one of the main point of the Nimitz or Forestal refurbishment concern the piping. All pipe was change from steel to cupro-nickel alloys... then, forget the rost and such dammage for... allways.
such expensives reparations doesn't exist in French Navy. I know the ship since 1980-90 is fit directly with such pipe, but not those made before.
About the Foch, before it was sales to Brazil, a refurbishment was made, and the made ine 1968 ship was abble again to reach 32 knots.... but how long times ? 5 minutes, 5 hours, or 5 days ?? anyway, it was still old. I don't know how deep the checking going on the boiler, but obviously it was not good enought
then, asbestose was remove as much as possible (all is unpossible, anyway better as the british or US customs, who's never remove it, but give all to Indians workers! :evil: )
of course, new paint, and others secondary thing
the missiles Crotale systemes removed, the Elint and radio modified.
on my knowledge, the sale price was about 40.000.000 FRANCS, about 6.1 millions Euros, but I may be wrong.

By the way, is about the same cost for remove the asbestose from Clemenceau :think:

I don't know about the reliability of the Bismarck, but when I think at the Hood.... My first thinking goes to the assassined crew of the "Bretagne" in Mers El Kebir.
- Well sir, please agree with me that you other, French, you fight for monnay, whenn us, british, fight for the honnor !
- Of course sir, but you know, everybody fight for what he's leack !
Robert Surcouf, French Corsair, 1773-1827


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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by Bgile » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:42 pm

Bill wrote:I don't know about the reliability of the Bismarck, but when I think at the Hood.... My first thinking goes to the assassined crew of the "Bretagne" in Mers El Kebir.
I can understand feeling that way, but ... didn't the French shoot back? How can this be called an "assassination" if the French had time to prepare to respond to the British? Weren't there several hours when battle stations could be manned, etc? I know it was complicated for them, but they had quite a few options and one of them was simply to put to sea and fight the British.

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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by ostriker » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:17 pm

The Foch was sold for 80.000.000 of francs (12,2 millions of euros). My opinion is that this ship had to be sent to the brokers.

Regarding MEK, I think it is a endless debate, French and Britsh have their parts of responsibility on the loss of these 1297 crewmans.

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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:03 am

The French could have abided the British instructions in order to save the lifes of their crews. The British acted well and with proper forewarning.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Bill
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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by Bill » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:30 am

then why british veteran came in Mers el Kebir 2 years a go for commemoration ?

and if it was a regular way to shoot these whos fight with you untill few days a go against the common ennemy, how can you complain after that it was to much people support Petain, Vichy gouvernment and collaboration ?

The french navy support more damage from "friendly" fire than from germans or Japanese and italians togethers !

The biggest mistake made by the french in MEK was to follow to closely the capitulation conditions, evens them stay out of germansd and italians control, in Africa :stubborn:
you will agree that germans was fair, and fight fair, is them's honnor

for back on topics
about the Foch sales price:
80.000.000 francs divide by 24000 tonnes means a sales price of 3.33 francs per kilogs, less than 0.5 euros per kilogs. It Is almost the scrap price
that including all what I allready explain, sensors, drydock, some refurbishment, asbestose removed...

I don't beleave that we can really complain about it.
Of course, is a old ship, everybody know it.
- Well sir, please agree with me that you other, French, you fight for monnay, whenn us, british, fight for the honnor !
- Of course sir, but you know, everybody fight for what he's leack !
Robert Surcouf, French Corsair, 1773-1827


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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:39 am

Well Bill, the french received (not supported) more fire from "friendly fire" because, basically, as in WWI they didn´t fought the Germans. The reasons why the British had to come to Mer El Kebir and neutralized the french "fleet" are commonly known, so I don´t think a re capitalution is required. The french knew, very well, what they were doing and what could happen. They preferred to be a pawn in Hitler´s table, Petain style, than to go with their allies, those that spilled their blood at the Somme and several other battlefields. At the end it was Rodney the one at Normandy, liberating france, not Richelieu, and it was a french fault, as always, not the one of the allies.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Bill
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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by Bill » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:31 am

Dear Karl

I beleave too you have a psychiatric problems with France and French :think:
in your youngest times, was it a french boys thief your bear ? :?

anyway, I will not continous on this way !

you will certainly agreer with me that the allied forces headquarters in 1939 was idiotic (I include the French, the Belgium, the British and holland, because NO ONE of them see the strategic diversion and the main attacks in Ardennes montagnes.
We can admit too that Hitler, Von Mainstein and the others was real genius for do a such blitz ! after that, everybody, worlwide, copy this strategie, and evens after the war, US search to learn from nazis and Hire numerous of them.

but if in 1938 French headquarters, was idiotic as hell, roughtly not all the soldier, officer, sailors, engineer and so on. If not, I just wonder how De Gaulle found guys for continous fighting. :think:
De Gaulle was right, Daladier, Weygand and these others assholes never understand that on the WW2, the Mediterranee sea shall be what was the Marne river on WW1
:stubborn:

I just remember my family storie about what means a war, and I feel such kind of moment dumb as hell !
you beleave me if I tell you that in my family we get:
- french soldier and resistant, then german soldier (I talk about the same guys :lol: )
- Afrika corps volunter
- Free French soldier in africa
and all of them, after the war, stay in the internationnal veteran association, founded by De Gaulle and Adenauer :dance:
- Well sir, please agree with me that you other, French, you fight for monnay, whenn us, british, fight for the honnor !
- Of course sir, but you know, everybody fight for what he's leack !
Robert Surcouf, French Corsair, 1773-1827


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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by lwd » Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:53 pm

Bill wrote:Dear Karl
I beleave too you have a psychiatric problems with France and French :think:
in your youngest times, was it a french boys thief your bear ? :?
Doesn't seem all that different from your views of the British.
anyway, I will not continous on this way !
...
Good idea.

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Bill
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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by Bill » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:08 pm

yeah, I agree on the 2 points, but for the british, is different, you can ask anyone clever European fellow :lol:
And if is not enought, you can still ask a scottish or a Irish what he think about :shock:

If you know what said my Croatian mates about UK... :whistle:
- Well sir, please agree with me that you other, French, you fight for monnay, whenn us, british, fight for the honnor !
- Of course sir, but you know, everybody fight for what he's leack !
Robert Surcouf, French Corsair, 1773-1827


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Re: Brazil buys 50 helicopters, 5 submarines from France

Post by lwd » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:14 pm

Bill wrote:...
And if is not enought, you can still ask a scottish or a Irish what he think about ...
The Scotts and Irish are British. Indeed genetically they are more British than the English.

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