Royal Navy today.... and forever!

The warships of today's navies, current naval events, ships in the news, etc.
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RF
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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by RF » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:41 am

Gary, that is why a Q-ship is needed for the job, concentrating the marines in one place.
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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by Bgile » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:29 pm

RF wrote:Gary, that is why a Q-ship is needed for the job, concentrating the marines in one place.
Now all you have to do is get the pirates to attack your Q-ship, which is one of hundreds of ships passing through the millions of square miles of ocean they use for a stomping ground. When they finally do attack you, you capture them and release them just like a warship would.

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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by yellowtail3 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:51 pm

No need for Marines... just a couple mounted Browning M2, and a locker full of rifles. Those items, and a modicum of awareness, ought to be enough to deal with boatloads of half-starved 'pirates' trying to board a ship underway.

Or maybe I'm naive.
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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by Bgile » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:39 pm

yellowtail3 wrote:No need for Marines... just a couple mounted Browning M2, and a locker full of rifles. Those items, and a modicum of awareness, ought to be enough to deal with boatloads of half-starved 'pirates' trying to board a ship underway.

Or maybe I'm naive.
I think you are correct, but shipping companies don't want to arm their crews and some ports of call wouldn't allow them in if they did. That will all change over time if the pirate menace gets appreciably worse.

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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by RF » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:50 pm

I think the shipping companies would much prefer the Allied navies to do the job properly, otherwise maritime insurance rates are going to soar.
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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by hammy » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:43 pm

From mid WW2 Merchant ships routinely carried an armed force known as DEMS to man the defensive guns , which on a typical Tramp type freighter would be a single Bofors 40mm on a "bandstand" platform on the Forecastle , four or six 20mm Oerlikon cannons in single mounts down each beam wherever these could be conveniently fitted , and a 4 inch low angle gun at the stern .
The ( mostly army ) troops supplied to man these weapons were generally third rate in terms of fitness and experience , and the detachment of 20 to 30 men was generally in the charge of just one professional Gunner NCO to organise , keep discipline and train the detachment .
There is therefore no reason why similar detachments cannot be made to any ship of size that asks for it nowadays .

As three reserve quality machine guns and say ten mediocre small arms will be ample to deal with the pirate threat as experienced to date , a dozen men per ship should be enough , in the charge of a corporal boosted up to sergeant .
You dont have to send the Marines , and it would be a waste to do so for most of the time these detachments will have nothing to do at all , for if you've practiced repelling an attack and polished your gun for ten days continuously then doing it again more than a couple of times a week is pointless .
Therefore you can use detachments of troops from all over the world , wherever you can get them , just dont mix them on the same ship . In terms of quality they have to be a grade well above the "thugs in uniform" level , and the NCO has to be brighter than the average tree , not Rommel .
The accomodation can be boosted , if necessary , using prefab units welded on as you routinely do with an oil rig , and anything extra by way of machinery or facilities or supply stores/tanks can go on in frame and standard box shipping containers .
The ship will need a little fitting with protected gun emplacements ( galvanised wire mesh , angle iron and sandbags will do ) , and some security gates and fencing and lockings to doors and hatches , all simple work that can be done in any port while working cargo .

The problem of "Port Rules" has been mentioned ie that some countries would not like armed guard parties on merchant ships to enter their waters .
Fine . There are a number of things to do then .
1 ) - You hold an immediate International conference and you give them an ultimatum to permit on-board armed Guard parties in national service uniform , with reasonable agreed conditions and controls .
2 ) The alternative being - " Sorry , due to the risky shipping situation and your refusal to co-operate in this matter , Ships will no longer call at your ports ".
Or , "Ships will now call at your ports only in organised convoys with international Naval escorts ".
3 ) Or- where this is strategically unacceptable , Reflag the now armed vessels as Naval .
ie " The merchant vessel "Runcorn Pustule" formerly registered in Liberia/Panama has been taken up from trade and is now one of HM ships sailing under the Blue Ensign as one of the RNR "( or foreign equivalent )

There are no means lacking here .
There is no new technology required here , in fact that of 1910 will do perfectly well .
There is no great extra expense required here .

What is required here is THE WILL to do it .
" Relax ! No-one else is going to be fool enough to be sailing about in this fog ."

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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by RF » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:10 am

hammy, what you propose is politically expedient, will cost money on the part of the taxpayer and is totally unrealistic in dealing with the problem. We and other countries have regular armed forces to deal with piracy, they should do that job, not third rate irregulars allowed to go into ports apparently anywhere with their weapons, which in itself poses major security problems.
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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by hammy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:43 pm

Nobody suggested using irregulars RF .( except , apparently , the French Government ). As stated in my post the job plainly needs to be done by REGULARS to get around the issue of trying to arm civilian crews who would probably miss and hit each other anyway .

I am saying that the threat posed , at present , is of such a low order that you could use simple infantry units from places like Uraguay , the Philipines , Iceland , Mexico , Morocco , Thailand and Fiji .

You dont need the 101st Airborne , the Royal Marines , or the Preobrashensky regiment to do the job .

And where is all this "political inexpedience" coming from ? Has any state in the area actually objected to any anti piracy measures , or refused to co-operate in any way ? Have the international community even been asked ? Have the Ship operators been asked ? I dont see any active eyes on this issue at all at present .

Until some Western Leader takes the initiative over this problem and does something effective about it then the thing will carry on endlessly , and being seen to be profitable , it will get worse .

As for the cost ,
Firstly , the soldiers required would be being paid anyway , so they might as well be paid for doing something useful .

Secondly , the costs of modifying the ships is small , compared to the total costs incurred in the whole capture/ransom process .
The armament is cheap because its all laying there in the armouries now , and the ammo is just small standard stuff too .

Thirdly , It's a lot cheaper than a Q ship . With a DEMS unit aboard anything of size , they are all going to be Q ships anyway .

And with the institution of specific sea lanes in which all vessels are to sail ,
and the institution of satellite radio alarm transmitters in every ship ,
( like the EPRIB transmitters for emergencies , you just key the thing and it sends I.D., position and a preset sos signal continuously which automated receiving stations pick up and set off an alarm to a human watchkeeper )
and the organisation of daily convoys along the frequented routes ,
you could make it much harder for the pirates .
" Relax ! No-one else is going to be fool enough to be sailing about in this fog ."

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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by Gary » Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:58 pm

otherwise maritime insurance rates are going to soar.

I suspect they already have.

I'm suprised Egypt isnt doing more to counter this menace, if shipping companies opt to go the long way around Africa instead of using the Suez then its loses them money.
I know its more costly going around Cape Good Hope but surely thats better than having your ship, cargo and crew hi-jacked?
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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by Bgile » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:53 pm

Gary,

There are pirates on both east and west coast of Africa.

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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by RF » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:00 am

Gary wrote:[

I'm suprised Egypt isnt doing more to counter this menace, if shipping companies opt to go the long way around Africa instead of using the Suez then its loses them money.
What exactly can Eygypt do? It is not a major maritime power, and has enough problems of its own without taking on major external commiments.
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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by IronDuke » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:20 am

The Royal Navy remains a large Navy in overall world terms, once it has its two new large carriers -the largest ships ever built for the RN, and the largest Aircraft Carriers outside the US Navy- it will still be in the top two or three Navies in the world.

It has generally good ships and is certainly second to none in training in the world and is the only Navy to have fought, and won, a full on air-sea shooting war since World War Two.

I do not, myself, see the British letting control of the RN go to the EU, there are far to many occasions when British interests are not those of the EU. Britain, retains the Pound and remains, thankfully, slightly semi-detached from the EU in many ways.

The RN, alongside the USN and Royal Australian Navy, and others, is taking a full part in Naval operations in the Gulf and Anti-Piracy operations. She has several ships in the South Atlantic and often has ships in both the Med and the Indian Ocean, etc. The RN remains a relatively powerful Blue Water Navy.
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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by RF » Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:24 pm

IronDuke wrote: The RN remains a relatively powerful Blue Water Navy.
Ted
But not as powerful as I would like to see it. The problem is of defence cutbacks and EU policy.
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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by IronDuke » Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:33 am

I'm not a fan of the EU myself. It's origin, in my view, was a way of France to cuddle up to, rather than be defeated by, Germany: Not sure what advantage it holds for Britain.

Britain, like almost all other nations, has cut its defenses since the collapse of the Soivet Union. On the other hand Britain has a lot of Army and RAF assets tied up in Afghanistan, and that is expensive.

From what my contacts tell me, we probably should not take too serioursly some of the more alarmist press reports with regard to the new Carriers. The air groups for them are still a bit of a worry due to the slippage of the US F35 programme, but then again the ships have been designed to have conventional catapults fitted, so even that is not 'make or break'.

I believe both ships will be commissioned, all be it probably two years later than planned, and that they will both have a viable air group. I also think it not at all unlikely that, in the end, at least six 'Daring's' will be commissioned, rather than the four the present Government is committed too.

Once the Carriers are comissioned, in normal circumstances only one would be on operations at any one time, three-four Daring class plus four or five 'Duke' Class ships is a reasonable escort group in the face of any likely threat, for one carrier with 30 plus fighter/strike aircraft AEW and Helicopter ASW assets.
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Re: Royal Navy today.... and forever!

Post by RF » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:29 am

The long terem problem Ted is that under the Lisbon Treaty the EU is on its way to creating European Armed Forces. Not specifically its own forces, but the existing NATO forces, including the RN, operating under EU and not British control. That could mean the carriers might never be commissioned, if an EU commissioner decides his countrys' navy comes before the RN.

Of course none of this will be discussed in the British General Election.
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