JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

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lwd
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

Post by lwd »

Just noticed this:
Kyler wrote: .... When Allied or friendly nations that field other technology have gone up against US in friendly fights, the US has gotten the crap beaten out of it. Prime examples of Cope India with Su-30MKI's vs F-15C's and RAF Eurofighters v F-15C's. ....
You need to be really careful about interpreting the results from those meetinds. In none of the ones I've read about would I consider the outcome to have been the US getting "the crap beaten out of it". Furthermore there were often restrictions that dissallowed the use of some of the avantages the US would bring to a real battle. Couple this with the results fitting the needs of both the USAF and the allied AF and things are far from transparent.
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

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Bgile wrote:The Chosen One? Why am I not supposed to look at this as racial bigotry?
Nothing racial about it. He was chosen by the media and the Democratic Party (okay, I repeated myself there) in spite of his complete lack of qualifications and his history of anti-American activities and marxist-socialist beliefs, which were covered up by the media. His whole campaign was hero-worship with all serious questions being avoided. If there was any racial angle, it was that the Democrats desperately wanted a black candidate in order to continue getting 95% of the black vote despite the reality that their policies are detrimental to the success of black America.

I don't care what color or gender a President is, just that they abide by their oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States. I've been supporting J.C. Watts, a black conservative from Oklahoma, for a long time, hoping he will get back into politics on a national level.
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

chcrawfish is quite right, the problem has never been race but ideology. Jimmy Carter, George W. Bush or Clinton are as bad as Obama but are white. What that make you? Chinese or Polinessian?
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

Post by Bgile »

Well, no way am I going to debate this here. I just get sick of seeing all this right wing propaganda presented as facts on this board under the guise of something else, and then I have to read it because I'm interested in the military stuff.
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

Post by Kyler »

Come one Karl, if you want to start a political conversation about the public perception of Barak Obama start a thread in the Off Topic Forum
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

Post by Kyler »

lwd wrote:Just noticed this:
Kyler wrote: .... When Allied or friendly nations that field other technology have gone up against US in friendly fights, the US has gotten the crap beaten out of it. Prime examples of Cope India with Su-30MKI's vs F-15C's and RAF Eurofighters v F-15C's. ....
You need to be really careful about interpreting the results from those meetinds. In none of the ones I've read about would I consider the outcome to have been the US getting "the crap beaten out of it". Furthermore there were often restrictions that dissallowed the use of some of the avantages the US would bring to a real battle. Couple this with the results fitting the needs of both the USAF and the allied AF and things are far from transparent.
The US got the crap beat out of it, in visual range air to air combat. Since even allied nations don't want to give away their actual radar ranges and frequencies these scenarios are done in WVR not BVR. In those instance the USAF got trounced in the F-15. While BVR is becoming more common the close in WVR has always been the best way to ensure a kill. To this day the most sophisticated instrument inside a cockpit is the pilot's head including his eyes, ears, and brain. These scenario's proves the USAF no longer have the dominance it once had.
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Wrong f@%king ship!" Commander Stewart-Moore (HMS Ark Royal)
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Kyler;
Come one Karl, if you want to start a political conversation about the public perception of Barak Obama start a thread in the
Off Topic Forum
You are right, of course. I just answered to the previous post, but is obviously out of topic. But you must expect that because the thread`s topic, by it´s consequences, will turn political every time and now.

Ayway, point taken.
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

Post by Kyler »

lwd

Western fighters have always had the advantage because of over whelming numbers even than shoot downs in some instances required the firing of large amounts of BVR AAM's.

Currently the only inservice BVR missiles in Western nations is the AMRAAM (B-C models) and MICA. The Meteor is still a few years away from operational service. Russia on the other hand has developed exceptional BVR missiles like the R-27/ER that comes in a IR & Radar version, R-77 the most maneuverable and probably the best BVR missile in the world currently, R-37 a true long range missile, in addition to developing a ramjet powered R-77 and the R-127 that is designed to shoot down AWACS at very long range.

The AIM-9X is still only a 4th gen because it doesn't not have the range and maneuverability compared to other 5th gen missiles like the ASMAAM, Python V, and R-74. Though the US is trying to catch by up, though it is taking the unusual approach of developing a Air to Ground capability for the AIM-9. This version will probably be called the AIM-9Y.

Helmet mounted sights allow for off bore sight targeting of fighters, this is especially useful in WVR combat, had the US or Allies encountered this technology on the battlefield in the early 90's, they would have a very rude awakening. I have talked Superhornet pilots, and they say the couldn't have imagined ever fighting without it before.

Again supercruise and stealth have no relation, The F-22 & T-50 will be the only fighters capable of supercruise that incorporate large amounts of stealth. The Eurofighter, GripenNG, and Su-35 are all non stealthy platforms that have or will have supercruise. In addition supercruise is more related to maximum dry thrust of the engine not in reheat, not the shape of the aircraft. Yes aerodynamics play a part but overall thrust levels are more important. The F-22 is not a lifting body aircraft but the Su-35 & Eurofighter are.

From conversations I have had with most people is that they assumed since the PR of the Pentagon called the JSF a mini version of the F-22 that it would have the same sophisticated electronics and communication gear. It doesn't so it won't have the same levels of capabilities of the F-22, though it will still have a Link 16 datalink like many modern US fighters.
"It was a perfect attack, Right Height, Right Range, Right cloud cover, Right speed,
Wrong f@%king ship!" Commander Stewart-Moore (HMS Ark Royal)
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

Post by lwd »

Kyler wrote: ...The US got the crap beat out of it, in visual range air to air combat.....
1) That's not what I remember reading. PLS present some results.
2) Note that it was restricted to the regime where it's acknowledge the US has the least advantage and where US pilots are no longer concentrating in their training.
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

Post by lwd »

Kyler wrote:lwd

Western fighters have always had the advantage because of over whelming numbers even than shoot downs in some instances required the firing of large amounts of BVR AAM's.
In a strategic sens they have had over whelming numbers. However that has not necessarily been true of some of the actual engagements. There's also the question of whether or not large numbers were requred or just expended. Can you suport your position with more details and or numbers?
.... Russia on the other hand has developed exceptional BVR missiles
And historically Russian equipment has not always lived up to its reputation.
The AIM-9X is still only a 4th gen because it doesn't not have the range and maneuverability compared to other 5th gen missiles like the ASMAAM, Python V, and R-74.
Again what exactly is the difference between 4th and 5th gen?
Helmet mounted sights allow for off bore sight targeting of fighters, this is especially useful in WVR combat, had the US or Allies encountered this technology on the battlefield in the early 90's, they would have a very rude awakening. I have talked Superhornet pilots, and they say the couldn't have imagined ever fighting without it before.
Indeed but the US has it now. So how is this relevant.
Again supercruise and stealth have no relation, The F-22 & T-50 will be the only fighters capable of supercruise that incorporate large amounts of stealth. The Eurofighter, GripenNG, and Su-35 are all non stealthy platforms that have or will have supercruise. In addition supercruise is more related to maximum dry thrust of the engine not in reheat, not the shape of the aircraft. Yes aerodynamics play a part but overall thrust levels are more important. The F-22 is not a lifting body aircraft but the Su-35 & Eurofighter are.
Your follow up does not support your contention that they have no relation.
From conversations I have had with most people is that they assumed since the PR of the Pentagon called the JSF a mini version of the F-22 that it would have the same sophisticated electronics and communication gear. It doesn't so it won't have the same levels of capabilities of the F-22, though it will still have a Link 16 datalink like many modern US fighters.
Where exactly was it refered to as a mini version of the F-22?
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

Post by Kyler »

lwd wrote:
Kyler wrote:lwd

Western fighters have always had the advantage because of over whelming numbers even than shoot downs in some instances required the firing of large amounts of BVR AAM's.
In a strategic sens they have had over whelming numbers. However that has not necessarily been true of some of the actual engagements. There's also the question of whether or not large numbers were requred or just expended. Can you suport your position with more details and or numbers?
.... Russia on the other hand has developed exceptional BVR missiles
And historically Russian equipment has not always lived up to its reputation.
The AIM-9X is still only a 4th gen because it doesn't not have the range and maneuverability compared to other 5th gen missiles like the ASMAAM, Python V, and R-74.
Again what exactly is the difference between 4th and 5th gen?
Helmet mounted sights allow for off bore sight targeting of fighters, this is especially useful in WVR combat, had the US or Allies encountered this technology on the battlefield in the early 90's, they would have a very rude awakening. I have talked Superhornet pilots, and they say the couldn't have imagined ever fighting without it before.
Indeed but the US has it now. So how is this relevant.
Again supercruise and stealth have no relation, The F-22 & T-50 will be the only fighters capable of supercruise that incorporate large amounts of stealth. The Eurofighter, GripenNG, and Su-35 are all non stealthy platforms that have or will have supercruise. In addition supercruise is more related to maximum dry thrust of the engine not in reheat, not the shape of the aircraft. Yes aerodynamics play a part but overall thrust levels are more important. The F-22 is not a lifting body aircraft but the Su-35 & Eurofighter are.
Your follow up does not support your contention that they have no relation.
From conversations I have had with most people is that they assumed since the PR of the Pentagon called the JSF a mini version of the F-22 that it would have the same sophisticated electronics and communication gear. It doesn't so it won't have the same levels of capabilities of the F-22, though it will still have a Link 16 datalink like many modern US fighters.
Where exactly was it refered to as a mini version of the F-22?

In the specific event of the Balkans, Air Forces Monthly (British Publication) did interviews with Yugoslavian & NATO pilots, while there were a few differences for the most part the stories lined up about how many missiles were fired. It was Dutch pilots that intially tried engaging the MiG's and they used 6 AMRAAMs which all missed, finally a salvo of two were sent out and 1 finally taking down one of the MiG's. There really have not been many engagments with the AMRAAM in combat, but the AIM-7 Sparrow has a really awful combat record with combat use and in live tests being successful on 20 to 40% of the time. During both the first Gulf War the Iraqi airforce never put forth a large force of aircraft. Often the lone aircraft or pair was met by either a flight of 4-12 CAP aircraft, most of the time being USAF F-15's.

True modern Russian & Western fighters have never really gone head to head in aerial combat. Though from recent conflicts in Africa like the Ethiopian Erietrian War, which both sides flew the modern Russian fighters piloted by Russian or Ukrainien pilots, The R-27, R-73, and R-77 proved their deadliness againts aircraft like the MiG-29 & Su-27/30's. Russian AAM missiles have much more dynamic control surfaces. This allow them to pull many more G's, thus the have quicker and faster respones to evasive manuevers. Just because something is made in Russia doesn't mean its junk, the Balkans proves the Western made missiles can have the same problems as Russian ones. Many authors believe the R-77 is the best AAM missile currently because it is believed to have the same active radar seeking capabilities as most AMRAAMs, and has superior range & manueverability because of its unqiue lattice control surfaces.

Helmet Mounted Sights are still a new technology for the West. Combat tactics for this technology are still being developed. Instead Russia other countries have been fielding this technology for nearly 20 years. In addition most Russian aircraft are equipment with advance IRIS systems allowing the pilot to use the Helmet mounted sights to lock on in radar silent mode with long range or short range AAM missiles. Thus giving an important element of surprise. This technolgy has been integrated into F-22, Eurofighter, F-16E/F, Rafale, and only recently trials have been done with fuel tank/IRIS system for the Superhornet. Though most Western 4th gen aircraft do not have this capability while all Russian ones do. Russia as it has been upgrading its fighter forces and it customers as well have improved this technology. Russia has quite the lead in this area of Air to Air combat.

Both stealthy and non-stealthy aircraft are capable of supercruise so the two are not inter-related. You can have one without the other.

If you want to learn more about the USAF's PR campaign about the JSF being the mini F-22 I would suggest you good read early articles about the development and prototyping of the program.
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

Post by Bgile »

You are at least implying that AAMRAM is nearly useless. I recall that a Saudi pilot destroyed two Iraqi fighters with two AAMRAM missiles, and that was many years ago. To me, that at least implies that their reliability is a bit higher than you think. How much experience did the pilots in the Balkans have? Could they have fired them out of their engagement envelope? You can screw up an intercept with even a good weapon.
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

Post by lwd »

Kyler wrote: ... Both stealthy and non-stealthy aircraft are capable of supercruise so the two are not inter-related. You can have one without the other. ....
The fact that you can have one without the other does not mean that they are not inter related. Both require certain things of the aircraft that impose design constraints. An aircraft that does both isn't going to have a simple addative cost delta over one that can do just one.
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

Post by Kyler »

lwd wrote:
Kyler wrote: ... Both stealthy and non-stealthy aircraft are capable of supercruise so the two are not inter-related. You can have one without the other. ....
The fact that you can have one without the other does not mean that they are not inter related. Both require certain things of the aircraft that impose design constraints. An aircraft that does both isn't going to have a simple addative cost delta over one that can do just one.

I'll give a great example how the stealth & supercruise are not inter-related with one another at all. The Saab JAS 39 Gripen, the first 5th gen fighter to enter production and service. It was designed to be an advance low cost single engine air superority fighter & ground attack aircraft. While the design does incorporate a few stealth features like RAM, it was not designed nor intended on ever being or could be a true stealth aircraft. The current version is the JAS 39C/D, though Saab is developing the NG version, capable of supercruise by the addition of the F414G engine. This ability is by the addition of shear thurst. No stealth feature helps the NG Gripen supercruise.
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Re: JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Bottom line: is the F35 as powerfull an air superiority fighter as the F 22 is? If it is, then nothing is being lost. But if it´s not, then (money aside) then it´s a mistake.

Regards,
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