May 10

Non-naval discussions about the Second World War. Military leaders, campaigns, weapons, etc.
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RF
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May 10

Postby RF » Thu May 10, 2007 9:41 am

Today, May 10, marks the 67th anniversary of the launch of ''the cut of the sickle'' the blitzkrieg in the West that resulted in the Dunkirk evacuations and the Fall of France.

Perhaps the one military campaign where the Fuhrer actually picked the correct winning military strategy......
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Karl Heidenreich
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Thu May 10, 2007 4:16 pm

This marks one of the greatest campaigns in contemporary warfare. The French didn´t even knew what hit them. At the moment of their surrender the French generals were in some state of shock.
Of course, being the Germans the bad guys there are no many claps and hurrahs about this but it´s undeniable that there the Germans taught the world how wars are to be fight from then on.
Some learned the lessons as Patton and Zhukov, some didn´t as Maxwell Taylor.

Thanks RF for reminding us.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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may 10th

Postby Laurenz » Thu May 10, 2007 5:47 pm

Dear RF,
dear Karl,

of course, some luck for Hitler. The original plan was made by von Manstein and Guderian.
And Manstein had difficulties to propose his plan.
It shows the end of the "Guerre de drole".
And i do not think these both genius soldiers were bad guys.
What would you do, if the French declare war to you.
I would have told them, make love not war and send me your pretty maids :-)
Kind regards,
L.

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Postby RF » Sat May 12, 2007 9:57 am

The plan was indeed that of Manstein, as the original OKW attack proposal, Fall Gelb or Case Yellow that was nearly launched in November 1939 was merely a rehash of the Schlieffen Plan.

Hitler's ''success'' was in embracing the correct military strategy.
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Postby RF » Sat May 12, 2007 10:02 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:This marks one of the greatest campaigns in contemporary warfare. The French didn´t even knew what hit them.



The French, like the Italians were not ready for war and the troops not motivated for it.

This was demonstrated by the last ditch resistence on the Somme on June 5-8th, the only time the French fought effectively, when their interior was being invaded.

Another factor was that there were 400,000 French troops in the Maginot Line. Their only contribution to the campaign was to surrender en masse on June 22nd, a surrender largely overlooked by the historians.
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Re: may 10th

Postby RF » Sat May 12, 2007 10:05 am

Laurenz wrote:
What would you do, if the French declare war to you.

L.


The French declared war for very good reason - to protect Poland.

Unfortunately they did nothing - in September 1939 they could have finished Hitler by walking through western Germany, as the Siegfried Line was not only incomplete, but almost entirely unmanned - all Hitler's forces were in Poland.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Postby RF » Sat May 12, 2007 10:08 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:Some learned the lessons as Patton and Zhukov, some didn´t as Maxwell Taylor.

Thanks RF for reminding us.


And of course Erwin Rommel....
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may 10th

Postby Laurenz » Sat May 12, 2007 11:35 am

Dear RF,

he French declared war for very good reason - to protect Poland.


I cannot really answer you. The answer would be too political.
But its helpful to study the time of the early 20th, the situation in the eastern
german provinces, the polish exile government, the polish military government, the legislation and circumstances for germans in the former german provinces, the role of the Völkerbund.
Good comparison to that time is in our days the Kosovo.
Another good comparison is the difference in demands to Poland (for example: the Korridor) between Stresemann and Hitler.

Some learned the lessons as Patton and Zhukov, some didn´t as Maxwell Taylor.


Zhukov learned not so much about it, according to Victor Suworows book
-Marshall Schukow-, Lebensweg über Leichen, ISBN 3-932381-7.

:-)
Kind regards,
L.

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Postby RF » Tue May 15, 2007 9:52 am

Laurenz,

The period you describe concerning the Polish territories and eastern Europe is not a matter of political conjecture but of historic, documented fact.

Stresemann wanted a negotiated, peaceful settlement with the Poles, Hitler wanted to smash Poland utterly as a steeping stone to conquering the Soviet Union.

The historical documentation from German sources about Hitler's intent is overwhelmingly conclusive.

Hitler had a non-aggression pact with Poland in 1934, to deter the Poles (who were part of a 1920's alliance between France, Czechoslovakia and Romania to check any German, Austrian or Hungarian territorial expansion in the Balkans/eastern Europe) from interfering in his moves 1935/38.

Having been thwarted by Chamberlain from having a military campaign to smash the Czechs in 1938 Hitler was determined to have his way in 1939. The military conferences of May 1939 onwards made this clear. The non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union replaced the now redundent pact with the Poles.

The position with the German minorities in Poznan, the territorial rights over the Polish Corridor are entirely red herrings, conveniently exploited by Geobbels.
The condition and freedoms of the Germans in Poland were pretty good by east European standards and the Poles were perfectly ready to grant the Germans territorial rights of access across the Corridor right up to August 1939. This is a matter of documented historical fact, not one of political argument. Indeed the foreign policy of the Poles was to have good relations with the Germans because they distrusted their eastern neighbour the Soviet Union; the Germans could directly help the Poles in any conflict with the Soviets whereas the French were too distant to offer immediate assistance in the event of sudden Soviet attack.

The September 29th 1939 meeting between Ribbentropp and British ambassador in Berlin, Neville Henderson, at which the German ''demands'' over Poland were dictated by the German Foriegn Minister, had to be dictated by Ribbentropp at too great a speed for Henderson to note down in their entireity. Why? Because Hitler and Ribbentropp were concerned that the Poles would accept their demands if they were communicated to Warsaw. Hitler wanted his war, not another Munich settlement.
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:-)

Postby Laurenz » Tue May 15, 2007 4:34 pm

Dear RF,
the Polish exile government died on an airplane accident, which some people commented the British secret service was responsable.
Since 1921 Poland was led by a military government. which was never elected.
Since 1926 German farmers in Poland could not donate their farm to their children in the case of death.
Since 1921 up to 1939 around 1.5 million German people fled crossing the Weichsel river. Völkerbund did nothing.
In comparison the UNO made action in the Kosovo after around 700thousend people escaped to Albania.
Dear RF, these information four you are simply written by me to generate some thoughts about some historical facts.
Still i want to avoid some political discussion. I would like to stay out of trouble :-)
Kind regards,
L.

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Postby RF » Thu May 17, 2007 9:50 am

Laurenz,

The death of Sikorski was an accident. The British had no motive for killing him (though the Soviets might have, and they were implicated in the post-war ''suicide'' of Czech leader Jan Masaryk) and Churchill genuinely regretted his death. Moreover Sikorski was not the sum total of the Polish Government in exile.

There were considerable population movements after WW1, many Germans did leave Poland to live in Germany. The laws of succession in many European countries do tend to be archaic and I would imagine that in the 1920's the Poles would have been faced with what to do with the Junker estates in Pomerania and Posen (or Poznan as the Poles called it).

Much of the hostility in the later part of the 1930's between the German minority and the Poles was stirred up by the nazis for their own ends.
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Re: :-)

Postby RF » Thu May 17, 2007 9:57 am

Laurenz wrote:
In comparison the UNO made action in the Kosovo after around 700thousend people escaped to Albania.

L.


You cannot compare Serbia under Milosevic with Poland of the 1930's. In fact Milosevic had far closer resemblance to Hitler.

Kosovo had an ethnic Albanian majority, and had been part of Serbia since 1878 when formerely it had been part of the Ottoman Empire.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Postby ostriker » Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:12 pm

RF wrote:

This was demonstrated by the last ditch resistence on the Somme on June 5-8th, the only time the French fought effectively, when their interior was being invaded.



Interesting point.
The loss on both sides show this.

German losses (killed + wounded)

From 10 may 1940 to 3rd june 1940:

2499 / day

From 3rd june to 24 june:

4762 / day

In comparison, in Russia, during the period from 22 june 1941 to 10 december 1941:
4506 / day

Italian losses (killed + wounded) from 10 june to 24 june:

6100.

Very strange and interesting, that the resistance of french troops was more strong when the result of the battle was already knowed.

Another factor was that there were 400,000 French troops in the Maginot Line. Their only contribution to the campaign was to surrender en masse on June 22nd, a surrender largely overlooked by the historians.


Yes this is the result of the Gamelin tactic. This man was norrow minded on the defense. He wanted to do a war with minimal lost.
When this man was fired, the face of the french ground army changed, but it was too late.
I highlight the "ground" army, because the air one and the navy one were not unemployed.

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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:16 pm

No one can seriously compare what happened in France in 1940 with the Eastern Front. The ruskies lost some 20 million men in combat and the Germans around 5 million; scorched earth everywhere; complete cities wiped; and something interesting: the damm commies fought and never surrendered. Did the name Stalingrad rings a bell?
One soviet general wrote that the military historians were very partial with their criteria, that the western allies had fight half the German strenght in 1943 which the russians in fact did at Kursk, would have they prevailed? He think not. Neither do I.
Having the Germans their eastern front forces on June 6th, 1941 anyplace near Normandy it would have been the bloodiest and most futile day in the military history of the allies... and continental Europe would have been a great holiday stop for the masterly nazis...
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Postby ostriker » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:23 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:No one can seriously compare what happened in France in 1940 with the Eastern Front....


Sure Karl i just put this number for a small comparison.
And don't worry im not basic stupid "frogish", i know what is stalingrad, as the german know what is Verdun.


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