Operation Market Garden
Operation Market Garden
Yet another anniversary of this battle has just passed. Most accounts recall that the operation failed in its overall strategic objectives, but very few consider what would have happened if all the bridges had been seized and held until the British relief columns arrived.
If all the bridges had been taken, would it have ended the war in 1944 as the British planners had hoped?
If all the bridges had been taken, would it have ended the war in 1944 as the British planners had hoped?
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
Re: Operation Market Garden
My gut feeling is that success in Market Garden was only one factor in ending the war. In order to end it in 44 a rational leadership in Germany was required. History suggest to me at least that it was not present. Now if it had induced a coup or in some other way removed Hitler from power perhaps.
Re: Operation Market Garden
The thinking in Market Garden was that seizure of these bridges would allow a quick crossing of the Rhine and British/Canadian forces would seize the Ruhr. This was seen as effectively destroying Germany's ability to wage war and thus the war must end, whether Hitler is still there or not.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
Re: Operation Market Garden
It's hard to say. There was the possibility of trapping large German formations on the "wrong" side of the Rhine, and who knows what would have happened. The planners certainly thought it had good chances or they wouldn't have committed their entire airborne force to the attempt.
It looks to me like it failed due to bad luck (German SS troops unexpectedly in the area of Arnhem) and overconfidence in the speed of the breakthrough and advance of the British armored formation. Was it doomed from the beginning? I don't know but if it had succeeded at the very least it would have had a different treatment in textbooks.
It looks to me like it failed due to bad luck (German SS troops unexpectedly in the area of Arnhem) and overconfidence in the speed of the breakthrough and advance of the British armored formation. Was it doomed from the beginning? I don't know but if it had succeeded at the very least it would have had a different treatment in textbooks.
- Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Operation Market Garden
Instead of Monty´s Market Garden, Ike would have been wise to gave those resources to Patton at the Sarre. He (Patton) would have reached Berlin before the commie vermin. Everybody knows that Market Garden approval was a matter of allied politics, not of allied strategic thinking. That´s why Polish General Sosawosky threatened to ask for his orders in writing when the massacre fall upon his men. At the end it did fall upon them....
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Sir Winston Churchill
Re: Operation Market Garden
A thrust through the Sarr would have had further to go, and would also have faced the difficulty in crossing the Rhine. Neither would it have necessarily led to a speedy occupation of the Ruhr, unless the direction of the thrust was northwards and not directed at the Rhine. In which case forget Berlin.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
- minoru genda
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Re: Operation Market Garden
My opinion that if Operation Market Garden was successful there would be a big battle with the German forces concentrated for the Battle of the Bulge. I dont think the war would end in 1944, maybe in early 1945 but not in 1944. For me the difference is the Battle of the Bulge would be fought in the Rhine and not in Belgium.
Tora! Tora! Tora!
Re: Operation Market Garden
Did the Germans even start concentrating for the Bulge before October? If the western allies advance rapidly on the Rhine in September it may provoke a reaction that ends up weakening the Germans in the east. The Rhine is still a major obstacle but if the Soviets end up advanceing faster .....
- minoru genda
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Re: Operation Market Garden
I think the Germans wanted to launch the Ardennes offensive early in November but it was delayed a few times. OK at the time of Market Garden they didn't have all the armor divisions ready but had considerable reserves that could be sent against allies and delay the advance. I dont think the soviets would benefit from this much more that they benefited during the real Battle of the Bulge.
Tora! Tora! Tora!
Re: Operation Market Garden
If they rush a counter attack to contain a breakout it may collapse a lot faster than the bulge did. If they over commit and the allies get close to the Rhine then Germany has to pull troops out of the east.
Re: Operation Market Garden
The German build-up for the ''Wacht am Rhein'' operation only began in October. But the question of whether such a build-up would have affected the Allied operations after a successful ''Market Garden'' is an interesting one, as the two Waffen SS Panzer Divisions stationed around Arnhem had only recently been withdrawn from the Russian front to re-equip in what the Germans thought was a quiet area.
With respect to the Russians the pressure on that front was reduced at the time of ''Market Garden,'' as the June 1944 offensive against Army Group Centre had completed, the Russians were concentrating on driving into the Balkans through Romania, while waiting outside Warsaw for the Germans to put down the rising of the Polish Home Army.
With respect to the Russians the pressure on that front was reduced at the time of ''Market Garden,'' as the June 1944 offensive against Army Group Centre had completed, the Russians were concentrating on driving into the Balkans through Romania, while waiting outside Warsaw for the Germans to put down the rising of the Polish Home Army.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
Re: Operation Market Garden
Interesting topic, Operation Market Garden has always been one of my favourite battles from World War Two, its dynamics are quite interesting. As a child I visited Arnhem and stayed in a hotel next to the Jonney Frost Bridge (as its known now), Arnhem is quite a nice typical dutch town, its hard to imagine it was almost destroyed during and after Operation Market Garden. Also visited Nijmegen and other key battlefield sites.
I recently read a good book by Robert Kershaw called 'It Never Snows In September' about Operation Market Garden from the German perspective, very interesting. I also just finished reading Alan Clark's The Fall of Crete, surprisingly similar, but everything is in reverse, so the German are para-shooting this time.
I think was made the key difference in Operation Market Garden was the German reaction time, this was fast and reasonably effective. The Germans knew from their own experience that time was of the essence. Also planning an advance up a single highway was maybe not the brightest idea, when combined with lack of local air support because of weather fronts it proved fatal.
http://www.amazon.com/Never-Snows-Septe ... 1885119313
http://www.amazon.com/Fall-Crete-Alan-C ... 0304353485
I recently read a good book by Robert Kershaw called 'It Never Snows In September' about Operation Market Garden from the German perspective, very interesting. I also just finished reading Alan Clark's The Fall of Crete, surprisingly similar, but everything is in reverse, so the German are para-shooting this time.
I think was made the key difference in Operation Market Garden was the German reaction time, this was fast and reasonably effective. The Germans knew from their own experience that time was of the essence. Also planning an advance up a single highway was maybe not the brightest idea, when combined with lack of local air support because of weather fronts it proved fatal.
http://www.amazon.com/Never-Snows-Septe ... 1885119313
http://www.amazon.com/Fall-Crete-Alan-C ... 0304353485
Dominic Righini-Brand
dfrighini@me.com
dfrighini@me.com
Re: Operation Market Garden
I haven't read anything about this since my youth, but I played a number of war games. Wasn't there faulty intelligence about a major German Unit in the Arnhem area? In addition iirc the British had more trouble with their initial breakthrough than expected.
Re: Operation Market Garden
One of the problems was British intel did not get along well with the Dutch resistance, stemming from serious security failures back in 1940. Dutch resistance was therefore looked upon as unreliable, so when reports from the Dutch came in saying that the German retreat had slowed and that both an army group commander and an SS Panzerkorps had set up in the area, it was not treated with the priority it should have had. One British intelligence officer, Dirk Bogarde (the actor) did examine the reports and recon fotos, but he was unable to convince his superiors that the situation had changed enough to make the operation much more risky and prone to failure. It is rather ironic, that in the movie, Bridge Too Far, Bogarde plays the man (General Browning) he was unable to convince during the actual operation. Bogarde himself was sent into Arnheim during the battle along with eight other intelligence officers.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.
- Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Operation Market Garden
One of the main "common wisdom" claims is that the british fall over two german pz divisions. If we read well the historic accounts it is true: two german SS pz divisions were deployed in the zone. Both of them were undermanned, understrenghted and without replacement parts for their vehicles. One of them was on the way of being re deployed and it´s vehicles mounted on trains. The SS Commander, Wilhelm Bittrich, was cheating by dismantling some of the vehicles of the division that was going to be re deployed in order to leave them there, near Arnhem, and then "repair" them.
When the British fell over these units also the Americans of the 101 at Eindhoven and the 82nd at Njmegen. So Bittrich had to split his already weakened units in order to fight three airborne divisions on a 60 mile long highway and, somehow, stop Horrock´s XXX Corps with almost 20,000 vehicles. Of course the Germans had units before XXX Corps but it was one of the SS divions that one that had to fought back them at Njmegen (remember the big bridge with an explosive charge beneath it that never blew?) and then at the last portion of road from Njemgen to Arnhem.
At Arnhem, near the dropping zones the Germans didn´t have anything serious with exception of a small SS unit armed with an experimental rocket launcher weapon that proved lethal.
As a matter of fact the main core of the british inteligence wasn´t that mistaken: the German resistance was not that important or powerfull. Not a fraction of what the Germans had in the Vistula or against the ruskies. It is true that Student was preparing the falacious German "Airborne Army" in the surroundings and that the presence of Bittrich´s panzers played a vital role, one that the allies never accepted as a real threat before the drop. But it wasn´t, neither, that the paratroopers had to fight, since day 1 hour 1 against two fully armed crack SS PZ and hold their ground for a week. The German units facing the 1st British airborne was less than a German SS PZ with a fraction of their vehicles with the double mission of fighting for Arnhem and guard the southern flank of the bridge whilst the other understrenght PZ division had to guard more than 50 miles of highway against two US airborne divisions and XXX Corps. It was not until a week after that Student guys finally cut the "corridor" and the allies began to withdraw from the dangerous salient.
Also there is the issue that the allies had complete and unidsputed control of air operations.
Just for the record.
When the British fell over these units also the Americans of the 101 at Eindhoven and the 82nd at Njmegen. So Bittrich had to split his already weakened units in order to fight three airborne divisions on a 60 mile long highway and, somehow, stop Horrock´s XXX Corps with almost 20,000 vehicles. Of course the Germans had units before XXX Corps but it was one of the SS divions that one that had to fought back them at Njmegen (remember the big bridge with an explosive charge beneath it that never blew?) and then at the last portion of road from Njemgen to Arnhem.
At Arnhem, near the dropping zones the Germans didn´t have anything serious with exception of a small SS unit armed with an experimental rocket launcher weapon that proved lethal.
As a matter of fact the main core of the british inteligence wasn´t that mistaken: the German resistance was not that important or powerfull. Not a fraction of what the Germans had in the Vistula or against the ruskies. It is true that Student was preparing the falacious German "Airborne Army" in the surroundings and that the presence of Bittrich´s panzers played a vital role, one that the allies never accepted as a real threat before the drop. But it wasn´t, neither, that the paratroopers had to fight, since day 1 hour 1 against two fully armed crack SS PZ and hold their ground for a week. The German units facing the 1st British airborne was less than a German SS PZ with a fraction of their vehicles with the double mission of fighting for Arnhem and guard the southern flank of the bridge whilst the other understrenght PZ division had to guard more than 50 miles of highway against two US airborne divisions and XXX Corps. It was not until a week after that Student guys finally cut the "corridor" and the allies began to withdraw from the dangerous salient.
Also there is the issue that the allies had complete and unidsputed control of air operations.
Just for the record.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Sir Winston Churchill