Villers Bocage: don´t be fooled by the Firefly

[Karl Heidenreich]

June 13th, 1944.

Dawn:

Michael Wittman in his Tiger alone in the middle of an enemy onslaught.

12 half tracks destroyed
3 light tanks destroyed
6 medium tanks destroyed

0800:

Michael Wittman in his Tiger alone, again, in the middle of an enemy onslaught.

12 tanks destroyed
4 Firefly tanks blown to hell

At the end of that day the overall tally of Michael Wittman´s WWII activities were:

138 tanks destroyed
132 antitank guns destroyed

More than any other tanker in History... FOREVER.

His memory alongside the greatest warriors of WWII like Eric Hartman, the greatest air ace of all times and Otto Kretschmer below the waves...

[RF]

You omitted the ending Karl.

Wittman was killed in the Normandy campaign.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Against superior numerical forces, yes, he was killed. So was von Richtofen, Gunther Prien and so many heroic men that are forgotten because they fought in the wrong side of the war.

[Bgile]

Against superior numerical forces, yes, he was killed. So was von Richtofen, Gunther Prien and so many heroic men that are forgotten because they fought in the wrong side of the war.

I think a lot more men are ignored because the fought on the "right" side of the war. Everyone knows about Wittman, Von Richtofen, and Prien.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Well, how many US, British or Russians tankers can claim as much as Wittman?

or

How many allied pilots can claim 360+ kills?
Not that many or not at all.

I think that in the overall list of air aces, for off topic example, the German pilots occupy all the first 100 slots as air aces. Then some finnish, romanian and then russians appear as aces and at the bottom the rest of the allies. Anyhow, if you see History Channel "Aces" chapters they make it appear that a couple fof Tuskagee pilots shot down the entire Luftwaffe single handed. Which is the impression our youth is getting because they don´t read, they watch TV and the missinformation they are getting from that kind of "documentaries". I´m waiting if somebody shows one for Prien´s adventure into Scapa Flow or how the Glorious was sunk. I will die waiting.

[JtD]

A lot of folks can claim a lot. German individuals claimed the most. The Allies can claim a team victory, though.

[Bgile]

How many American aces fought for six years? Do you think that might have something to do with the totals for German aces?

The North Vietnamese air force had aces with much higher kill totals than US fighter pilots? Do you think they were that much more skillful? I don't. They didn't get sent "home", and they had a target rich environment where their enemy was concentrating on bomb runs.

People who have actually studied Wittman's kills don't seem to think the numbers were that high for the one day. For one thing, they don't seem to agree with actual losses. There is no doubt he was a skillful tank commander ... maybe the best, but he wasn't fighting materially equal opponents. He wouldn't have done as well fighting allied heavy tanks which had weapons that could penetrate the frontal armor of a Tiger.

[dougieo]

How many American aces fought for six years? Do you think that might have something to do with the totals for German aces?

The North Vietnamese air force had aces with much higher kill totals than US fighter pilots? Do you think they were that much more skillful? I don't. They didn't get sent "home", and they had a target rich environment where their enemy was concentrating on bomb runs.

People who have actually studied Wittman's kills don't seem to think the numbers were that high for the one day. For one thing, they don't seem to agree with actual losses. There is no doubt he was a skillful tank commander ... maybe the best, but he wasn't fighting materially equal opponents. He wouldn't have done as well fighting allied heavy tanks which had weapons that could penetrate the frontal armor of a Tiger.

Just to follw on from him fighting US heavy tanks, how would he have fared fighting on the allies side in the inferiour tanks?

Its one thing blowing up tanks secure in the knowledge that they probably cant damage you because your either out of range or there gun is not powerfull enough, but its another when you know its one hit and your dead.

[Karl Heidenreich]

I will answer this with an hypothesis in a separate e-mail so we don´t contaminate this one.

[dougieo]

I will answer this with an hypothesis in a separate e-mail so we don´t contaminate this one.

apologies for going off track.

[RF]

I think a lot more men are ignored because the fought on the "right" side of the war. Everyone knows about Wittman, Von Richtofen, and Prien.

In England there is a very good example of this. Most people in school used to learn about Sir Francis Drake ''singing King Philip of Spain's beard'' in 1587 by raiding Cadiz, while the Spanish landing at and burning of Penzance in 1595 was air brushed from English history books.

[RF]

As already intimated the Germans will feature highly in any ''kill list'' because they fought for the entire war, they were skilled, and they had situations where they had plenty of targets. Were they the best?
The record of the German forces overall suggests that they were among the best, if not the best. How many countries as single nations could take on half the world and fight for years?
Even the Italians clocked up successes over the three years or so whilst in the Axis, such as the subnmarine Leonardo da Vinci, which sank more allied shipping than the great majority of individual U-boats. The leading Italian air ace shot down 23 Allied planes, including an American bomber the day before Italy capitulated.

My question would be - how good would have Wittman have been in the Afrika Korps under Rommel?

[Bgile]

As already intimated the Germans will feature highly in any ''kill list'' because they fought for the entire war, they were skilled, and they had situations where they had plenty of targets. Were they the best?
The record of the German forces overall suggests that they were among the best, if not the best. How many countries as single nations could take on half the world and fight for years?
Even the Italians clocked up successes over the three years or so whilst in the Axis, such as the subnmarine Leonardo da Vinci, which sank more allied shipping than the great majority of individual U-boats. The leading Italian air ace shot down 23 Allied planes, including an American bomber the day before Italy capitulated.

My question would be - how good would have Wittman have been in the Afrika Korps under Rommel?

Rommel didn't have Tigers, so he would probably have died against the British like so many other good tank commanders did. In any case, I don't think the Tiger was very well suited to the Tunisian campaign with it's fast flanking movements unless it was kept close to the coast.

[lwd]

Rommel didn't have Tigers, so he would probably have died against the British like so many other good tank commanders did. ....

Actually Rommel did have Tigers and Whitman started out in Stugs I believe and got a fair number of his kills in them.

[tommy303]

yes, sPz Abt 501 with a strength of 20 Tigers and about 26 PzKw III-M support tanks.