Tiger Kills and Losses

[minoru genda]

...If we look at the overall picture, Germany produced about 50,000 AFVs (Tigers, Panthers, Pz.I, II, III, IV, SPG, Stugs, etc). They lost the war so we can say they lost all of them. The Allies lost about 100,000 AFVs during the war, most of them Soviet. So the ratio is about 2:1. But even here we must be carefull because not all of these loses were caused in tank vs. tank battles. Many of those 150,000 AFVs were lost to aircraft, mines, AT guns, etc. I think the losses in tank vs. tank battles favors the Germans perhaps 3:1?, but I don't have detailed info about it.

Also consider that a lot of the allied losses were light and/or obsolete Soviet designs. Furthrmore in the West from what I've read the majority of allied tank losses did not come from German tanks. Mines, AT guns, and infantry acounted for the majority. Given that for the most part the Germans were on the defnesive did they really have all that impressive a kill ratio in the west?

You are correct about the Soviets obsolete designs particularly during Barbarrosa. But also remember that Germany attacked the Soviets with about 3,200 tanks only and many of them were still Pz.II and Pz.I. I think the Soviets lost something like 15,000 AFWs during the first 6 months. It is not easy to make comparisons. For example if we look at France 1940, the French lost 4,000 tanks (not all in combat) becasue they lost + British tanks, and the Germans lost 839 out of a total of about 2,500. That's a 5:1 ratio. But again as you say many tanks losses are not actually from tank vs. tank battles but from other causes. It is impossible to separate the cause of every tank lost, all we can hope to have is the final overall result of the war or a particular campaign.

About Tiger Kill ratio. If 2,000 Tigers were built and the Germans lost them all, the question is, How may enemy AFVs did they destroy?

Even if we do have such a ratio what does it mean?

Nothing at all, but the title of this thread is "Tiger Kills and Losses"

[lwd]

About Tiger Kill ratio. If 2,000 Tigers were built and the Germans lost them all, the question is, How may enemy AFVs did they destroy?

Even if we do have such a ratio what does it mean?

Nothing at all, but the title of this thread is "Tiger Kills and Losses"

Good point. :)

[mkenny]

Of those 2,000 AFV's how many could have been possibly destroyed by German tanks?

No one knows. No one will ever know. However it is a matter of record that Allied losses to Panzerfaust were running at around 30% when they entered Germany

What % of loss reduction can be assumed the Soviets put in their stats?

I do not know. If the question is 'did all sides inflate their kill rates' then the answer is yes.
The wrong answer is 'everyone EXCEPT Germany inflated their kills'.
When I see someone claiming an IS II knocked out 50 German tanks then I will say it is unbelievable and highly unlikely. To date all the silly stories seem to concern lone Tigers.

but if you include the German Stugs then it is only fair to include also all the Soviet SPGs.

The trick is to compare like with like and not compare the total of all destroyed and damaged Allied AFV's to the total of just the German tanks totally destroyed. That is the normal way to get a good 'ratio' for the Germans.

Considering how outnumbered the Germans were, I think they did very well. Don't you think? No Tiger could stop an enemy tank corps for 3 days, but still...

I don't say this with any kind of malice but that attitude is entirely behind the silly claims often advanced for German tanks.
They did not 'do well'. They were comprehensively ground into the dust by an enemy they picked to fight and at a time they picked to fight.

I despair at this constant referal to 'kill ratios'. This seems to be a post war invention and a reflection of the US Military obsession with facts/figures and the infamous 'body count'. This whole fixation has been grafted on to the WW2 actions and used (mainly by those who have an inflated opinion of all things military and German) to re-run the batles and claim some form of moral (if not military) ascendancy. Thus though they lost the war we can all stand back in amazment and realise they only lost because they were outnumbered-the 'it wasn't a fair fight' excuse. This is a variation of the claim that in a 'fair fight' Germany would have won( or the even sillier ' if the war had lasted a few more moths then the wunder-waffen would have tipped it')

[lwd]

...
When I see someone claiming an IS II knocked out 50 German tanks then I will say it is unbelievable and highly unlikely. To date all the silly stories seem to concern lone Tigers.
...

I think I've seen some pretty impressive ones about an IS tank or sometimes even a T-34 ... the details don't seem to change even whent the tank does ....

[minoru genda]

...
When I see someone claiming an IS II knocked out 50 German tanks then I will say it is unbelievable and highly unlikely. To date all the silly stories seem to concern lone Tigers.
...

I think I've seen some pretty impressive ones about an IS tank or sometimes even a T-34 ... the details don't seem to change even whent the tank does ....

Here are some:
Lieutenant Lavrinienko T-34 destroyed 52 German tanks in the battle for Moscow 1941.
Lieutenant Kukarin T-34 destroyed 16 German tanks in a single battle in 1941.
Konstantin Samokhin destroyed 69 German tanks, 13 other AFVs, 82 guns, etc. over 5-month period.
Alexander Oskin knocked out 3 Tigers, captured 3 Panthers at Staszow 12 August 1944.

I also read the story sometime ago of a single KV-2 held the German advance for 48 hours during Barbarrossa.

Merry Chirstmas!!

[mkenny]

Find me an example where a single Allied tank is claimed to have defeated an entire Armoured Division (Wittmann)

Or where a single Sherman is claimed to have held up an entire Corps advance (Barkmann)

Any example of a single/3 Allied tank(s) destroyed 200+ tanks in one action (various accounts from Berlin)

[minoru genda]

mkenny, so your point is that although all sides inflated their kill rates the Germans did so to a greater extent, correct?

[minoru genda]

I don't say this with any kind of malice but that attitude is entirely behind the silly claims often advanced for German tanks.
They did not 'do well'. They were comprehensively ground into the dust by an enemy they picked to fight and at a time they picked to fight.

I despair at this constant referal to 'kill ratios'. This seems to be a post war invention and a reflection of the US Military obsession with facts/figures and the infamous 'body count'. This whole fixation has been grafted on to the WW2 actions and used (mainly by those who have an inflated opinion of all things military and German) to re-run the batles and claim some form of moral (if not military) ascendancy. Thus though they lost the war we can all stand back in amazment and realise they only lost because they were outnumbered-the 'it wasn't a fair fight' excuse. This is a variation of the claim that in a 'fair fight' Germany would have won( or the even sillier ' if the war had lasted a few more moths then the wunder-waffen would have tipped it')

Well, being outnumbered and fighting many enemies at the same time I think was main cause of the German defeat. Anyone can see that. You dont have to "stand back in amazment" but it is only fair to admit that they fought damn well. Of course that is no excuse, Hitler got what he deserved, but credit where it's due, the Wehrmacht is one of the greatest military machines in history.

[mkenny]

mkenny, so your point is that although all sides inflated their kill rates the Germans did so to a greater extent, correct?

No. All sides overestimated the others losses. The problem as I see it is the myth that German guns were one-shot one-kill wonder weapons. Thus we have a legion of devotees who believe every time the '88' fired a destroyed enemy tank was inevitable. They take no account of misses or the fact a tank might just be damaged rather than destroyed. When you look at it logicaly then you would realise that making millions of '88' AP rounds meant the Germans had no such illusions about every shot being a killer.
What seems to have happened is that the resident 'ace' in a German tank Unit seems to have routinely been given credit for all the claims made for tanks under his control. The tank commanders making the claim also got the credit along with his gunner. Thus you could have 3 kill credits for one claim-and a claim was not a confirmed kill!
Late war the Germans seem to have handed tank kill badges out like sweets and the 1945 claims have no relation to reality.

[VeenenbergR]

mkenny. I think we both have the same aim to analyze what really happened and what the real losses were.
Sorry for posing the German wonder weapons, it is mere that I wanted to know what really happened with the Königstigers of Diers, Turk, Körner and Kerscher;
the few other KT's fighting for Berlin.

In reading all the detailed the accounts on internet the picture is quite clear to me now. No Diers did NOT held of a panzer corps for 3 days, he was merely present one day near
the Reichstag. Perhaps together with Turk they managed to stop 100 Soviet AFV's, but even that is doubtful.

Most information I got out from books like: all the major books of Jentz and those on the Tiger, Volkmar Kühn (Tiger, die Geschichte eine Legendären Waffe), Otto Carius (Tiger im Schlamm), "Bloody Streets" and many accounts of former german panzer crews (on Internet), Böttcher (Ich kam durch) usw. A very useful book was "Berlin im Todeskampf" of Jean Mabire (Div. Charlemagne). Uwe Feist his books about the Panther and Tiger. I highly value the books of Glantz: Forgotten Battles, Kursk (with D. House). Anthony Beevor, very well written books, merely "paints" the overall feeling of a battle. Carell does the same but more for the German side. Other well written and historically accurate books: Reynolds, Danny Parker (Bulge expert) and some recent books about the Red Army.

My personal interest in WWII are 4 topics:
- all Order of Battles, AFV breakdowns. On Internet there are many now, games like the Europa Series of GDW afford additional insight.
- the losses: how they were inflicted, ratio KIA/MIA/WIA, the ones that did not recover...the POW's. In this area the
It then comes all to mathematics and indeed many (if not most) losses does not occur in the fighting itself.
- weapons, particularly those of Germany (Panther and Tiger)and the USSR (T34/JS), in naval war also the Japanese (heavy cruisers), French (capital ships) and Italians.Topics: Bismarck and Yamato.
- Battle for cities (Stalingrad,Warsaw, Budapest, Berlin),
- Air bombardments (Hamburg, Dresden, Berlin);
- my great personal interest: Berlin architecture 1940 (esp. urban housing), battle for Berlin.

What really bothers me is that I can not locate some pictures in Bloody Streets when the big boulevards are depicted with Soviet armor and I am sure 1 picture was not taken in Berlin.
I am still searching for another Berlin expert.

Rob

[mkenny]

For the info you seek I would go to Panzer Archive. They have a dedicated Berlin Thread.

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/

[VeenenbergR]

mkenny: thanks, great sites!!! Especially about the battle of Berlin I want to know much more. In the Netherlands a great series of very detailed studies about Stalingrad has appeared over the last years. Glantz also has written 3 books of each 800 pages about Stalingrad. With all that information and the Internet publications of Geert Rottiers (Belgium) I got to know all I wanted to know abaout Stalingrad.
Still if it comes to the numbers Stalingrad is not "clear" to me. Until anyone have better proven articles the Germans (and their allies, nut except the Hiwi's) had in total about 215-220.000 men in the pocket at 19 november 1942.

For the battle for Berlin the Wehrmacht had only remnants of 5 Divisions, barely numbering 30.000 troops. To them must be added units of the Volkssturm (virtually useless), 15.000 Hitler Jugend (very able with their Panzerfausts!) and a few thousand Naval infantry (they performed reasonbly well). In Berlin were Luftwaffe troops manning the deadly Flak and Polizei units. Total number of defenders about 60-70.000.
These defenses can roughly be compared to those of Budapest a half year earlier. Only Budapest was about 60% smaller than Berlin!

Of the German defenders aprox. 33% were KIA (perhaps 17% higher in the Volkssturm units) and the others were taken all POW, many succumbing in the weeks after imprisonment because they lost the meaning of life, became useless, were wounded, weakened and many suffered from burn-out or stress. Suicide was frequently carried out, Soviets took personal revenge killing and looting prisoners. Esp. members of the former Waffen-SS.
Losses just outside Berlin were higher: around Halbe between 40.000 were killed when trying to break out. Losses along the Oder/ Neisse were about equal of those in Berlin. The 12th Armee (Army) of Wenck lost about 10.000 (KIA, MIA, WIA)to reach the encircled 9th Army and 3rd Pz Army losses defending the North ware comparable to thoose of the 12th Army.
Overall military losses were about equal on both sides, but many German citizens of Berlin also lost their lives during the week of city combat: between 30-50.000 (numbers up to now not clear!!).

[VeenenbergR]

mkenny.

The source I now refer is Tigers in Combat II of Wolgang Schneider. He does NOT cite other authors so how he comes to what he writes is his own responsibility and his own deduction of.....stories.

The 503rd SS Heavy Bn. Page;s 372-374. KO=knocks out.

13.04.45 Inventory: 12 KTII's
16.04.45: to area north of Straussberg
18.04.45: blocking position road Prötzel-Bollersdorf: Soviet assault repelled: 64 enemy tanks KO for loss of 1 (remaining: 11 KT's)
19.04.45: part of Werkstatt-co falls into enemy hands. Diers kO 13 enemy tanks near Straussberg. 1 hit on turret and Diers is towed back by Bootsmann.
Bootsmann's KT has to be left behind because stuck into the snow and enemy is encircling them (remaining: 10 KT's). 5 KT's defend heights
near Grunow (Müller), they fire too early and spent their ammo; 3 additional KT's Körner) come to their aid and destroy 70 enemy tanks.
Müller is killed by an artillery shell. Körner with 3 KT's spots a column of JSII (and 100 T34/85's) near Bollersdorf and wipe out the Tank Brigade with 39 kills for
Körner and 25 for Harrer. In the afternoon they are attacked after resupply by 30 T34's and with 4th KT of Schäfer all 30 are KO.
Total score on 19th: 13+70+100 and additional sighed tanks earlier in that day (score unknown).
20.04.45 Several enemy tanks KO near Straussberg, Körner with Feige sent to defend to Nieder Schönhausen. Diers tank is damaged during repairs.
21.04.45 Retreat on Berlin Biesdorf then to Neukölln. Körner with Feige KO 15 enemy tanks. Feige is killed by a rifle grenade. Diers KT -> Werkstatt (Britz).

22.04.45 Retreat to the Teltow Bridge on the Sonnenallee: 1 JSU 122 is KO. 6 Kt's to the Division Charlemagne (300 men).
23.04.45 Körner KO 1 JSI. Freak hit inside gun tube kills the loader. Tank -> Werkstatt.
Schneider now deducts the loss of 1 KT without telling how and why (remaining: 9 KT's).
24.04.45. Bender KO's 4 tanks in Berlin West. Turk is placed in the Centre near the Spitalmarkt. Gast commands Diers KT (314) and KO another JSU 122
near the Teltow Bridge (South East)
25.04.45 The KT near the postoffice Neukölln is KO (remaining: 8 KT's). 1 KT counterattacks and destroys some enemy tanks and later KO 3 near
Jahnstrasse.
26.04.45 2 KT's (of which one is the 314) counterattack through Neukölnn. Gast is severely wounded when leaving his tank.
In the night maintenance in the Uhland strasse (Wilmersdorf).
27.04.45 Diers at Belle Alliance Platz, Bender near Halensee (KO 2 enemy tanks) and Körner and Schröder are in Kurfürstenstrasse (Wiilmersdorf).
28.04.45 Enemy attack near the Luisenstadt Church (where is that??) is pushed back. Körner and Schäfer to Reichskanzlei.
29.04.45 2 tanks (Bender and Stolze) near AVUS/Halensee (West) and rest is moved to the Tiergarten (Centre), Diers and Turk then move to the Potsdamer Platz/ Saarland Strasse.
They stop an enemy assault and KO several tanks (1 JSU 122 and several T34's). Bender replaced by Semik after being wounded.
30.04.45 Stolze KO 1 tank, Diers KO 30 tanks (T34's) near the Reichstag. Turk repels another enemy assault in the Saarland Strasse but right track is damaged.
Recovery by a Bergepanther to the Reichskanzlei. Moves later again toward the Potsdamerplatz and is abandoned later (remaining: 7 KT's).
01.05.45. 5 enemy tanks KO near Halensee. Diers counterattacks towards the Kroll Oper.
Goebbels orders a breakout after Hitlers death. Chossen is the route North by the Weidendammer Brücke (and then further North towards the Humboldthain and the
remains of the Grossdeutschland batalion. 21.00: 4 enemy tanks KO in Friedrichstrasse south of the Weidendammer Brücke. Körner takes over an abandoned Panther.

02.5.45 24.00 the breakout starts north with 2 KT's: Diers KT reaches the Gesundbrunnen near the Humboldthain and is blown up there. Turks KT (with 1 track out) has to be left behind.
(remaining: 5 KT's). Question: Turks KT WAS already left behind at the Potsdamer Platz!!! Is this then another KT? And where did it breakdown?
2 KT tries to break out to the West by the Schulenburger Brücke (Schäfer, Lippert) but are KO or destroyed by own crew (remaining: 3 KT's).
2 KT tries to break out to the West by the Spandauer Brücke (Stolze, Semik) but are abandoned during the night (remaining: 1 KT).
Körner with his Panther break outs vai Staaken towards Döberitz and KO 1 JSII and 2 AG's. The Panther itself is also KO.
1 KT in action south of Perleberg!!!! It bogs down in a meadow and is abandoned!!! (remaining: 0 KT).
03.05.45 Lippert is killed, Most members are captured by the Soviets near Ketzin.

[mkenny]

For the 19th the Soviets reported the loss of 105 tanks and a further 84 damaged. I stopped counting the German claims at 177 but common sense should tell you that a whole Army attacking Berlin on a very wide front Would not lose 94% of its tank losses to a handful of tanks in a small part of the Front.
If we accept these claims (and that is all they are) then every other German tank, every German mine and every German soldier with a Panzerfaust must have been asleep because the got less than a dozen between them.
If the Tigers got 177 then all the others were totally incompetent. Is that what you believe?

[VeenenbergR]

mkenny.

Clear that you doubt the German claims. But the Soviets themselves admit almost 200 KO for that day in that sector.
Think that the Soviets lost 2000 tanks and AG's for the whole battle of Berlin. Of these before being lost many were (even repeatedly) KO and repaired. So claims may be higher and true even the total score was 2000. Some sources even claim that only IN Berlin itself the Soviets lost 2000 tanks (or 2000 tanks and AFV's). Streets were pilled with wrecks of Sovietv tanks, where only there were about a dozen German Panther tanks, a dozen Panther pillboxes counted and in Berlin, Potsdam, Spandau another 10 KT's lost along with a dozen Hetzers, Stugs, Jagpanzer IV's (indeed all Forums show numbers not greater than 50 pieces). The Panzerfaust was the killer in the ruined streets of Berlin.
Of a force of 4000 Tanks and AG's losses were very high, but I can not believe them to be greater than 50%, even when fighting occurred mainly in city area.

There are a couple of explanations now:

- on the 18th and 19th the KT's clearly had their best oportunities. The unit was intact and most tanks were also. Later they became damaged (inside), tracks aso
- Schneider states that the first 5 KT were NOT succesfull and shot most shells too early......(and clearly missed .....). This underlines that KT's did not kill an enemy tank with 1-3 shots!!!
- Everywhere around Berlin the German Army was retreating after a 3 days battle along the Oder and were not very busy with destroying Soviet armour. It may be possible that other units were not so
succesfull and only the KT's of the 503rd did their job. Most units were bussy to get away from the (murderous) and waves of Soviet tanks.
- The Russians may be caught by surprise as Körner was clearly succesfull (it resembles the situation of the other tank ace Otto Carius).
- The days thereafter the KT's were less succesfull and were retreating towards Berlin.
- Fighting inside Berlin proved also a liability for the KT's which were lost on various occasisons like the one near the Post Office in Neukölln on the 24th.

The whole unit (including also thoose which fought at Danzig/Gotenhafen) claims 500 KO's which may be true for all vehicles and At's (not all of them tanks) and even that score is quite high.