Tiger Kills and Losses

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Bgile
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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by Bgile » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:41 pm

Hammy,

An interesting comparison, but your last statement left me wondering what you meant, since modern TANK armor can deal pretty well with the threat.

With regard to HESH or HEP ammunition, there are some problems. In US use it had to be stored vertically in the turret because the filler tended to flow "downhill" and would make the projectile unstable in flight if stored horizontally. M1 tanks don't have any vertical ammo storage. Secondly, it simply doesn't work very well against modern tank armor and often doesn't create the spall effect like advertised. Also, reactive armor completely defeats it.

The most effective weapon against modern tank armor is still some version of SABOT.

It may also surprise you to know that RPG hits that penetrate a fighting compartment don't necessarily kill the vehicle or injure anyone. Whatever is in the path of the jet of molten material gets hurt, and it's pretty narrow and well defined.

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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by alecsandros » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:43 pm

mkenny wrote: If you want to include damaged tanks then we must also include the total of ALL German tanks damaged. By including damaged Tigers then obviously the number of tanks will rise considerably. However the RATIO of tanks lost/damaged to air attack will not rise.
The % will still be 10%-15%.

Well, Bgile explicitly asked about Tiger losses due to air attack. As for the other panzers, they were far more vulnerable to cannons, and easier to put out of action.
The accounts about the Mk4/5 in Normandy are far more difficult to compute than those about Tigers. Plus, there remains the uncertainty of "knock-out" versus "destroyed". AND the other one, regarding damaged tanks which had been repaired and then re-sent to the battlefield..
As an example:a tank with a damaged engine, due to air attack, is abandoned and later blown off/captured by the allies. Do we assume it was destroyed by air?

Given all those uncertainties,the tally of tank-to-air losses in Normandy can be anywhere between 10-30%.

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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by alecsandros » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:50 pm

mkenny wrote:1) On the 18th of July, area bombing preceding Goodwood destroyed 1 tank and flipped over another
3 totaly destroyed by bombs. 1 fell into a crater and could not be extracted
I have 2 sources claiming 1 tank destroyed (direct impact), one fliped over(near miss). The one that fell in the crater was during the mission, he couldn't spot the crater because of the weat field.

You assume too much. The majority of these Tigers recieved damage and were not destroyed.
By "knock-out" I mean out of action, not destroyed.

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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by lwd » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:01 pm

A couple of minor corrections
hammy wrote:... "Hollow charge" Anti-tank projectiles ( like the RPG-7 , Panzerfaust and Bazooka rounds ).
In those , a streamlined conical nose is simply a windshield for the shaped charge behind .
This charge is usually also shaped as a hollow cone , but pointing aft .
The hollow is lined with aluminium foil .
Aluminium is not the only or indeed the prefered liner from my reading. I'm not sure about WWII though.
.... Melting the aluminium foil liner as it burns this projects forward at the plate target a jet of flame and molten metal in a condition which is called plasma , a combination of Gaseous state , extreme temperature and velocity . This Plasma jet burns a hole through the armour plate and the plasma jet then enters the AFV , with imaginable results .
The "jet" is not really a plasma. It's a mixture of liquid and solid metal. It also doesn't penetrate by burning but is basically a high velocity penetraror.
The ceramic layer in the "chobham" type armours cannot be penetrated by the plasma jet .
Unfortunatly it can it's just more resistent to it. It's also pretty good vs KE penetrators.
"Reactive" armour , which appears as flat khaki " packs" or "slabs" laid out over the AFVs hull+turret , is designed to deal with the hollow charge AT weapons , and another called "squash-head" , or HESH .
I hadn't read that reactive was designed to do much vs HESH/HEP indeed spaced armor defeats it pretty easily. Early on it was optimized vs HEAT but modern reactive armors work vs long rods as well.
... Reactive armour contains small HE charges laid onto a cushioning base .....
This usually suffices to render the attacking projectile ineffective as the plasma jet or shockwave are dissapated in the air space now between the projectile and it's target .
This is all rather dependent on the specific armor and weapon. Certainly the larger HEAT rounds such as HELLFIRE are still pretty effective. Note that there are so called "passive reactive" armors now as well.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_armour

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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by lwd » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:07 pm

alecsandros wrote: ...By "knock-out" I mean out of action, not destroyed.
In these sort of discussions one is well advised to state this sort of thing up front clearly and often. Even "knocked out" is a realtivly nebulous term. Do you mean out of action for 5 minutes? or 5 hours? of 5 days? or... ? Better to make things clear up front than have people assume something esle and go charging off in directions other than what was intended.

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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by hammy » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:20 pm

Bgile wrote:Hammy,

An interesting comparison, but your last statement left me wondering what you meant, since modern TANK armor can deal pretty well with the threat.

With regard to HESH or HEP ammunition, there are some problems. In US use it had to be stored vertically in the turret because the filler tended to flow "downhill" and would make the projectile unstable in flight if stored horizontally. M1 tanks don't have any vertical ammo storage. Secondly, it simply doesn't work very well against modern tank armor and often doesn't create the spall effect like advertised. Also, reactive armor completely defeats it.

The most effective weapon against modern tank armor is still some version of SABOT.

It may also surprise you to know that RPG hits that penetrate a fighting compartment don't necessarily kill the vehicle or injure anyone. Whatever is in the path of the jet of molten material gets hurt, and it's pretty narrow and well defined.
I was talking about all those angle iron frames with plates and tubes and mesh shrouding hung from them that many of the AFVs I see on the TV news started to sprout about four years ago , to keep off/prematurely detonate Anti Tank nasties .
The RPG is a pretty old bit of kit now , and designed to deal with the AFV of 50 years ago rather than todays , so the bit that does the damage is rather small - I'm surprised about the non-completely-lethal effect though - I'd understood it to be this great incinerating gout of fire coming out of the hole into the vehicle .
I guess it is still popular as you can teach a monkey to use it , its cheap and easy to build , throw it down a ravine and it still works , is very portable , and it has splendidly impressive pyrotechnic effects for the average jihadist yobbo .
" Relax ! No-one else is going to be fool enough to be sailing about in this fog ."

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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by lwd » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:55 pm

hammy wrote: ...- I'm surprised about the non-completely-lethal effect though - I'd understood it to be this great incinerating gout of fire coming out of the hole into the vehicle ....
That's because the "jet" or "slug" is not a "incinerating gout of fire" it's a fairly well formed mixture of liquid and solid metal. The one that took out the M1 in Bagdhad during the invasion caused a minor injury to one crew man and almost no damage to the vehicle except for one critical component. Sill no one wants fast moving pieces of metal in the comparment they are inhabeting.

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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by VeenenbergR » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:07 pm

Alecsandros and mkenny: :clap: for your analysis. I also did read Schneider about losses by air attacks and detected the same ambiguities. Was the Tiger II in the 101SS a total loss?

Of most books I read about Normandy air attacks were quite annoying and could break up planned attacks. Damage, stress, casualties all can bring down morale to a group which is bound for an assault in such a way that losses during the assault can be enough to stop with it. Such was the situation when the Germans near Mortain. Such was also the important first engagement of the "fresh" 9th and 10th SS Panzer Divisions.
Even Peiper suffered from an heart attack during the counterattack near Mortain, such great was the stress, the will to succeed, the importance to succeed!!
Also that last attack of Michael Wittmann was after a heavy bombardment of bombers and they drove like mad along the road towards Caen and to their end........
There was no control anymore it was just the irrational will to engage once more and endure what was waiting for them.

NB. The Grossdeutschland Division received the best equipment possible before Zitadelle: the 200 Panthers went to them, they had a complete STUG batalion (45 STUGS) and later (short after Zitadelle) a separate Tiger I batalion instead one Company (as in the SS Panzergrenadier Divisions)..... Gross Deutschland had most Ritterkreuzträger (Iron Crosses) of all German divisions !!! Their Stug batalion was the best Stug unit in the whole German army with the highest kill score ever attained in the 2nd WW. Their Panzer and Panzergrenadier regiments were elite .....
Gross Deutschland units were the famous Führer Grenadier (Bde/Division); Führer Begleit (Bde/Division); Panzergrenadier Division Brandenburg and Panzergrenadier Division Kurmark.

130th Panzer Lehr was the other top Wehrmacht Panzer Division and the largest Panzer Division (Ist strength june 1944) ever put in the field by the Germans. They were the only Panzer Divison equiped with the Königstiger!!!

After the TWO top units came the notorious 1SS Leibstandarte Adolp Hitler, 2SS Das Reich, 3SS Totenkopf, 5SS Wiking, 9SS Hohenstauffen, 10SS Frundsberg and 12SS Hitlerjugend Panzer Divisions.

There were a dozen Wehrmacht Panzer divisions which also had an unrivaled record in the field: notably the 2nd, 6th, 11th and 24th.

Yes US artillery coordination was better than the Germans which came third (after the Brittish), but in the other categories the Germans were the better (not looking at air-landing or amphibic capabilities when it deals about Panzer (grenadier)Divisions.

German Panzer Divisions were better trained, had the better (best?) cohesion, had undoubtly the beter (best?) fighting spirit, used the better tactics, had better (best?) weapons, better (best?) operational commanders (Feldwebels) and they looked damned well. Especially the soldiers of the Waffen SS divisions in their fine splinter camouflage dresses.

Germans however had less supplies and logistics and after 1943 also less air support than their adversaries. So in battle it all matters eventually.

And this is exactly why so many men admire the German Army of WWII until this very moment: they had THE professional army in all its look and feel and its expression. They had the best units but lost the war. That is exactly the myth (like that of the Bismarck) and that myth will be there forever. How many mkenny's try to tear them down: the monument is there. I just try to explain why.

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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by mkenny » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:25 pm

alecsandros wrote: I have 2 sources claiming 1 tank destroyed (direct impact), one fliped over(near miss). The one that fell in the crater was during the mission, he couldn't spot the crater because of the weat field.
I have a post where I show the photos of the 3 destroyed Tiger I's.

Image

The one that is said to have fallen in a hole in the wheat field was aTiger II. There is some confusion over this because there is a report from a Firefly saying it knocked out a Panther in the same field. There were no Panthers only the Tiger II's.
You can see on an recce photo the tracks of the TII's as they advance One stops at a (presumed) bomb crater.

Image

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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by Bgile » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:54 pm

VeenenbergR wrote:... and they looked damned well. Especially the soldiers of the Waffen SS divisions in their fine splinter camouflage dresses.
Kinda makes me wonder how American soldiers were able to defeat these guys as they cleared countless villages on their way to the Ruhr. I mean, the Germans were supermen, right? Bullets just bounced off them?

I suspect if we compare total casualties of the western allies with the Germans, the elite German troops don't come off quite like supermen.

I have even heard a rumour that US troops were carrying a really good semiauto rifle while most of the German infantry were still using bolt action weapons.

I'm really happy for you that you think their combat dress was cool.

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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by VeenenbergR » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:53 pm

Bgile. Come one Bgile, you are just joking. In every US movie the "good guys"from the USA want to dress themselves in German uniforms.
Ever saw The dirty dozen? Where eagles dare? The latest US movie about a German submarine Uxxx? All the same and Germans always are swept away, like flies......always the Germans shooting civilians.
Ok, all made in Hollywood you would say.
In saving private Ryan the US soldiers did not shot a SS soldier (with a nasty appearance and US marine cut hair) and let him walk away.... only to be confronted with him later: the message was you better kill those basterds straightaway.
The Go..Da.. US army was so keen to adopt virtually all NAZI regalia after WWII: the camouflage dress of the SS, German type helmets....the Eagles .
They even look well nowadays, those US soldiers......I would say: damned hypocrites. What about the US superiority over other nations, the racist mentality in the Us army against the population in Iraq and Vietnam. The Japanese? The chinese?
Even the Germans of WWII could learn about the efficient way the US army eliminates any opposition.
And then how those allies behaved in occupied Germany after the war: like a new masterrace. Even Patton felt sick and ashame when he heard of the treatment the US gave the Germans.
And don't tell me it were the Germans, Indians and other outcasts in the US army which committed all the endless war crimes in Germany, Vietnam, Iraq aso.

In the USA you can nowadays drive in a German tank or fly in a German aircraft (with original Balkenkreuz, Hakenkreuz) without being arrested.
You have to try that nowadays in The Netherlands or Germany and you are inmediately arrested for sure.

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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by Bgile » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:14 am

VeenenbergR wrote:Bgile. Come one Bgile, you are just joking. In every US movie the "good guys"from the USA want to dress themselves in German uniforms.
Ever saw The dirty dozen? Where eagles dare? The latest US movie about a German submarine Uxxx? All the same and Germans always are swept away, like flies......always the Germans shooting civilians.
Ok, all made in Hollywood you would say.
Yep, that's what I would say.
In saving private Ryan the US soldiers did not shot a SS soldier (with a nasty appearance and US marine cut hair) and let him walk away.... only to be confronted with him later: the message was you better kill those basterds straightaway.
That's interesting. You got that message and the message I got was US soldiers gave their enemy the benefit of the doubt and didn't shoot him offhand. I'm sure they did sometimes though. Look at Band of Brothers, much of which was NOT fiction.
The Go..Da.. US army was so keen to adopt virtually all NAZI regalia after WWII: the camouflage dress of the SS, German type helmets....the Eagles .
They even look well nowadays, those US soldiers......I would say: damned hypocrites. What about the US superiority over other nations, the racist mentality in the Us army against the population in Iraq and Vietnam. The Japanese? The chinese?
Absolutely. US soldiers were legendary in their inclination to grab souveniers. The took swords and pistols from the Japanese too. Something to show your grand kids.
Even the Germans of WWII could learn about the efficient way the US army eliminates any opposition.
Huh? I don't remember any of our death camps at all for some reason. We managed to hide the gas chambers somehow. We did treat our Japanese citizens very badly and most of us are ashamed of that. They have received financial compensation. Nothing excuses what was done to them, though. It was done out of unreasoning fear.
And then how those allies behaved in occupied Germany after the war: like a new masterrace. Even Patton felt sick and ashame when he heard of the treatment the US gave the Germans.
How many conquering armies rebuilt the country they defeated and then left? Ever hear of the Marshall plan? I'm sure your generation has pretty much forgotten that, and I'm sure they aren't at all grateful.
And don't tell me it were the Germans, Indians and other outcasts in the US army which committed all the endless war crimes in Germany, Vietnam, Iraq aso.
What endless war crimes? When we find out about such things we usually prosecute the responsible individuals, but war does bad things to people's minds. We have some SEALs on trial right now for mistreating Taliban prisoners.

We definitely vilify our enemies though. It's a lot easier to justify killing them that way. It's a cultural thing, and I'm pretty sure the Germans did the same in spades. It's the blond hair, blue eyed thing. The Japanese were definitely racist as well. I don't recall anything about a US death march of German prisoners, where we shot them when they couldn't walk anymore. Maybe you can document one and open my eyes.
In the USA you can nowadays drive in a German tank or fly in a German aircraft (with original Balkenkreuz, Hakenkreuz) without being arrested.
You have to try that nowadays in The Netherlands or Germany and you are inmediately arrested for sure.
You think that might have something to do with the stigma associated with what was done in the name of the Nazis during WWII? I do. Many Germans are embarrassed to be associated with them.

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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by VeenenbergR » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:34 pm

Bgile. Ok, I was just reacting on your kind of irony when I stated that the German clothing of the SS was very sophisticated and advanced (like the US Paratroops also had such a kind of clothing).
For "those days" the Germans were ahead with their outfit compared to their adversaries.That reminds me somehow of the many German requirements for their AFV outfit. This was always complete and advanced (also on the outside), while the Soviets drove tanks unfinished or unpainted to the front, because a tank would not last for long, so why put a lot of effort in it.

German soldiers were certainly no superhuman beings. They did however proved to be very stubborn and most encircled garrisons fought to the death. US troops preferred to surrender themselves but were treated very well by the Germans, while German troops were killed in many instances after surrender (certainly by the Serbs and Soviets). Their MIA is still 2.000.0000...... and they certainly do not live somewhere else on this planet. Bands of Brothers showed "incidents" by US paratroops and French troops. On the Eastern front these incidents were rather common facts.

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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:13 am

VeenenbergR :
German soldiers were certainly no superhuman beings. They did however proved to be very stubborn and most encircled garrisons fought to the death. US troops preferred to surrender themselves but were treated very well by the Germans, while German troops were killed in many instances after surrender (certainly by the Serbs and Soviets). Their MIA is still 2.000.0000...... and they certainly do not live somewhere else on this planet. Bands of Brothers showed "incidents" by US paratroops and French troops. On the Eastern front these incidents were rather common facts
:clap:
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by mkenny » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:56 am

VeenenbergR wrote: They did however proved to be very stubborn and most encircled garrisons fought to the death.
You only have to look at the millions of German POW's taken before the surrender to realise your claim is rubbish.
I suspect the reluctance to surrender in the East was because they knew what was going to happen when the relatives of all the murdered civilians caught up with them.

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