Tiger Kills and Losses

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mkenny
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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by mkenny »

The above 2 Tigers were not the only ones knocked out around Rauray. There is at least one more and no one has claimed it.

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This was towed away for inspection

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It was kept with other captured tanks


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and then used as a hard taget.


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Here are more images of the first Tiger knocked frontaly out by Sgt Dring in a 75mm Sherman
At a collection area with other captured tanks

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Note how it has now being marked with the sign of 8th Armoured Brigade(Sgt Dring's Brigade)


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alecsandros
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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by alecsandros »

Hello,
I promise this is my last attempt to make you listen to reason.

I do not know what to make of the report you posted:
mkenny wrote:The extract is of tank actions near RAURAY between 27 Jun. and 1 Jul

Next he took on a Tiger at 1400 yds just outside Rauray. He fired 6
shots of which 4 hit and the last one brewed it up. Tp. Cmdr. thought he had
missed it and only hit the wall behind. Sjt. Dring's next shot brought the
sparks and the remark "You don't see a brick wall spark like that".
This tank has been seen and is much shot up. It now has one scoop in front
vertical plate,
five penetrations in rear, four strikes with no penetrations in rear,
plus a scoop and one plate of engine hatch smashed


This report pretends that a Sherman tank (with 75 or 76mm gun) made at least 1 full penetration to the back-plate of a Tiger tank near Rauray, at a range of 1400y.
However, the back-plate of a Tiger was 80mm thick, with equivalent quality to ~ 90mm of British contemporary armor.
ALso, Sherman 75mm and 76mm guns, even using APCBC (which I doubt was available to them) didn't have this kind of penetration capability at said range.
mkenny
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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by mkenny »

alecsandros wrote:I do not know what to make of the report you posted:
mkenny wrote:The extract is of tank actions near RAURAY between 27 Jun. and 1 Jul

Next he took on a Tiger at 1400 yds just outside Rauray. He fired 6
shots of which 4 hit and the last one brewed it up. Tp. Cmdr. thought he had
missed it and only hit the wall behind. Sjt. Dring's next shot brought the
sparks and the remark "You don't see a brick wall spark like that".
This tank has been seen and is much shot up. It now has one scoop in front
vertical plate,
five penetrations in rear, four strikes with no penetrations in rear,
plus a scoop and one plate of engine hatch smashed
This report pretends that a Sherman tank (with 75 or 76mm gun) made at least 1 full penetration to the back-plate of a Tiger tank near Rauray, at a range of 1400y.
However, the back-plate of a Tiger was 80mm thick, with equivalent quality to ~ 90mm of British contemporary armor.
ALso, Sherman 75mm and 76mm guns, even using APCBC (which I doubt was available to them) didn't have this kind of penetration capability at said range.

That is a typical true believer response.
It is a detailed report which I have validated by posting photos of all the Tigers mentioned.
Instead of any form of rebuttal we get a nit-picking effort that zooms in on one minor detail and resorts to quoting theoretical pentration tables in a sad effort to 'prove' it isn't true!
The facts speak for themselves and I only wonder why you did not bother to claim the frontal penetration of Tiger 114 was a lie as well. I mean we all know it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Sherman's puny gun to pentrate the front of a Tiger at any range and UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.
You did say:
Sherman 75mm and 76mm guns, even using APCBC (which I doubt was available to them) didn't have this kind of penetration capability at said range

I presume that means the photos were faked?

alecsandros wrote:Hello,
I promise this is my last attempt to make you listen to reason.
I believe then that you are saying the report, the photos and the book extract are lies dreamt up by those who took part in the demise of the 3 Tigers?

Perhaps this extract from Agte's Wittmann book (page 377 hardback or the Operation Epsom Chapter for the paperback)might help open your eyes?




SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Mobius of the 1st Company of the Tiger
Battalion recalled those days of constant action: "It was impos-
sible to employ the Tigers in concentration, the demands from
all sides were too great. We were in action constantly; I was
forever en route from the Hitlerjugend Division to the Panz.er-
Lehr or later to the 2nd Panzer Division. Between the 25th and
30th of June I was ordered with all the battalion's Tigers - I
had eighteen serviceable tanks - to the command post of the
Hitlerjugend Division for a briefing.
The division headquarters had just been moved and I set off at
my discretion. I had no major combat orders, but the situation
was clear: the enemy could not be allowed on the main road
(Caen - Villers-Bocage, the author). My tanks and I had been
in action between the fronts for three days. I lost one tank after
another to enemy action and had three left, one of which had its
barrel shot away. I myself stopped an advance by the English
through a defile by destroying six tanks. I then attacked an
armored column with another tank (Ustuf. Amselgruber) and
knocked out three tanks; my gun jammed and I was shot up by
ten tanks
. I bailed out; Amselgruber had already done so."

SS-Untersturmfuhrer Belbe of the 2nd Company was wound-
ed near Verson. In Verson was the command post of the
Hitlerjugend Division, which was later moved to Louvigny.
Manning defensive positions ready to prevent a further break-
through in the direction of Verson and Grainville were ele-
ments of the 2nd and 3rd Companies of the Tiger Battalion,
together with a handful of tanks belonging to the 7th Company,
12th SS Panzer Regiment, a company of Panthers, a Panzer IV
company from the 21st Panzer Division, grenadiers from the
regimental units of the 26th SS Panzer-Grenadier Regiment
Hitlerjugend, and the 15th Company, 26th Regiment. The
English successfully crossed the National Highway from Caen
to Villers-Bocage and reached Baron.
The Tigers were constantly in action, attempting to stop
enemy attacks, bringing relief to the hard-fighting panzer-
grenadiers, and launching counterattacks to eliminate incur-
sions by the enemy.
SS-Unterscharfiihrer Warmbrunn of the 2nd Company
described the events of that day: "On 27 June I drove through
the enemy lines to assess the situation, which was uncertain. I
had volunteered for this mission with the concurrence of my
crew. When I drove over a hill I found myself facing a group of
thirty Shermans
. They showered me with a hail of shells and all
systems went out. We owe our lives to the self-control of my
driver, who did what we had always practiced, namely placed
the Tiger at an acute angle to our armored foe. The crew and I
then made our way back through the enemy to our departure
point. The mission was worthwhile in spite of the loss of the
Tiger
."
This type of operation was typical, for the Tigers had to
take care of almost everything themselves, even their own
reconnaissance. Now and then the Schwimmwagen crews of SS-
Untersturmfiihrer Henniges' scout platoon guided the Tigers
into their positions, having scouted them earlier. But the scout
platoon could not be everywhere, nor could the armored recon-
naissance platoon. SS-Untersturmfuhrer Hahn was wounded in
the head by shell fragments and the bone in his left forearm
was shattered.
The mission of the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend on
28 June 1944 was to prevent the loss of Hill 112 and a further
breakthrough by the enemy toward the Orne. The Tigers saw
action near Verson, while the tanks of the Hitlerjugend Panzer
Regiment fought near Hill 112. Every English attack was
answered by an immediate counterattack, often by scraping
together the last reserves, as was noted by the English VIIIth
Corps. The British 11th Armoured Division was halted on its
way to the Orne and on orders from the corps remained in the
bridgehead position, since the situation north of the Odon was
still uncertain.
The 1st SS Panzer-Grenadier Regiment of the 1st SS Panzer
Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler intervened in the fight-
ing on the Normandy Front for the first time that day. It had
taken the division that long to arrive and not until 6 July would
the entire division be assembled there. Together with several
Tigers, two understrength companies of the 22nd Panzer
Regiment, and a company of the 12th SS Panzer Regiment
Hitlerjugend, the 1st Regiment attacked toward the west from
the area of Verson.
The aims of the attack were to stop the enemy from breaking
through to the Orne and simultaneously capture favorable
jump-off positions for a counterattack by the Und SS Panzer
Corps. In heavy fighting Mouen was taken from the
Monmouthshires holding the town. SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer
Frey and his panzer-grenadiers advanced to Colleville. From
there they halted an attack by three armored battalions and a
reconnaissance battalion. Later enemy artillery pounded the
German units holding out in the town. The number of Tigers
lost in this operation is not known
. The 2nd and 3rd Companies
reported minor losses.
In another part of the front was SS-Untersturmfuhrer
Amselgruber
of the 3rd Company. The following is taken from
a combat report: "28 June 1944. Amselgruber remained in his
old location during the night and the entire day, repelled prob-
ing English infantry, and was attacked by a superior number of
English tanks. Amselgruber was able to knock out two
Shermans before his tank was disabled by several hits.
Amselgruber's left leg was badly injured as he abandoned the
tank; however this failed to prevent him from pulling his gun-
ner, who had been seriously wounded in the belly by shell frag-
ments, from the tank and taking him with him. Under very
heavy machine-gun and cannon fire, Amselgruber headed
back with the gunner in the direction of our lines, which he
came upon after dark. This determined stand by
Amselgruber undoubtedly helped give our infantry suffi-
cient time to settle into a new, although only makeshift,
position. Amselgruber returned to the battalion, said noth-
ing about his injured leg, and returned to action the follow-
ing day."
Amselgruber had been attacked from Colleville by tanks
of the 9th Camerons; he knocked out two of three tanks and
thus stopped the attack. After his tank had been knocked out
and Amselgruber was forced to leave his position, the
enemy, with strong artillery support, succeeded in taking
the town of Grainville-sur-Odon. 28 June 1944 was the last
day of Operation "Epsom."


Note the 10-30 Shermans always needed to knock out a Tiger(sarcasm) and that the Tiger crews do not abandon their tanks and flee in panic (as all Allied tankers do in the face of Tigers-more sarcasm) but are 'forced' to leave the tanks.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Alex,

I am posting this in a manner to show the real capabilities and performance of the main WWII tanks. It is done in a respectfull way and it is evidence-based, it's purpose is to discuss in a civilized way and not to be provocative of a low-profile verbal attack.

Following is a table of penetration for several types of WWII tanks (ranges in meters).

Tiger vs………………..Cromwell………………….Sherman…………………….Sherman A4……………….T-34/85
Front turret……..……..2000………………………….1800…………………….………1800……………………….1400
Mantlet……………………2700………………………….200………………………………200…………………………400
DFP………………………....3500…………………………..0…………………………………..0……………………………100
Nose………………………..2500………………………….2100…………………………….2100……………………….100
Side turret……………….3400………………………….3500…………………………….3500……………………….2200
Superstructure………..3500………………………….3500…………………………….3500……………………….2100
Hull…………………………..3500……………………….…3500……………………………3500………………….……3500
Rear turret……………….3500………………………….3500…………………………….3500……………………….3200


Now we have:

Sherman vs Tiger
Front turret…………………..0
Mantlet…………………………0
DFP……………………………….0
Nose……………………………..0
Side Turret…………………100
Superstructure……..…..100
Hull……………………………..900
Rear Turret…..…………….100

Sherman A4 vs Tiger
Front turret…………………..700
Mantlet…………………………100
DFP……………………………….600
Nose……………………………..400
Side Turret……………….…1800
Superstructure……..…...1800
Hull……………………………..3200
Rear Turret…..…………….1800



T34/85 vs Tiger
Front turret…………………..500
Mantlet…………………………..0
DFP……………………………….300
Nose……………………………..200
Side Turret……………….…1600
Superstructure……..…...1600
Hull……………………………..2900
Rear Turret…..…………….1600

The totality of Tigers produced was of 1349, of which some 35 were rebuilt and a great number repaired after damage.

In all fronts, western and the more violent eastern the number of Tiger losses:

1715 (which is more than those fabricated). It is important to note that some of these casualties were inflicted, also, by allied airpower.

Number of kills the Tigers inflicted on allied tanks:
8,580

Kill ratio: 5.74 : 1

Even if the Germans were lying outright and they produced three times less casualties than they really inflicted then the ratio would have been:

1.91 : 1

Which is still awesome considering the numerical superiority of the enemies rallied against the Germans, specially in the more important Eastern Front, on one hand, and the air power mustered in the western front ( we have that the US produced some 50,000 tanks during WWII. To that we must add the numbers of T-34 and other classes of tanks produced by the allied countries).

Anyway, it was the British those that nicknamed “Ronson” the Sherman: “Lights up the first time, every time!” The Polish refered to it as: “Bruning grave” and the Germans called it “tommycooker” because of the British crews using it.

I found amusing that the proposed doctrine for the Sherman was not to fight tank to tank battles; the Sherman was supposed to support the armies’ maneuvers and the tank killing to be performed by tank destroyers. That goes in accordance to the technical specifications that we have seen here, which clearly demonstrate why was that the Tigers outgunned and outperformed the Sherman in combat at almost any range.

The used sources for this post are:

From:
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm
Jentz, Thomas: Germany’s Tiger Tanks – Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_ta ... c_Theaters
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Bgile
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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by Bgile »

Well Karl, from your table the Sherman A4 beats the T34/85 vs Tiger, doesn't it? Why are you so hard on the Sherman, and why isn't the T-34/76 listed?
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Bgile:
Well Karl, from your table the Sherman A4 beats the T34/85 vs Tiger, doesn't it? Why are you so hard on the Sherman, and why isn't the T-34/76 listed?
It is not my table, it's Jents' one.

I noticed that the Sherman performed better in several cases over T-34. It surprise me a lot, specially when the T 34 is so highly praised. Obviously there are considerations added to "just" the penetration, such as mobility and economy. From what I read the T34 real advantages were really evident during winter. I do believe that the "easiness" to manufacture the tank is also an aditional bonus, in this case MAYBE the T 34 suited best here.

On the T34/36 it is simply not listed. However I think that the T 34/85 outguns the former.

Regards,
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alecsandros
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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by alecsandros »

mkenny wrote:
I presume that means the photos were faked?
No; it means the range wasn't 1400y, but probably less.
alecsandros
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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by alecsandros »

Hi Karl,
Very nice post.
My only addition would be that, along with normal ammunition, most tanks carried more powerfull APC shells. The Tigers carried 88mm rounds with tungsten cores IIRC, and by mid-late 1944 some Shermans received APCBC ammunition. The new ammo improved penetration quite abit.

Cheers,
Alex
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Tiger Kills and Losses

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Alex,

Will try to find some info on the APC munition, but not today becuase I'm on a way to work meeting :(

But will look forward on that. I think it is helpfull for a better understanding.
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