Pilot Aces of World War II

Non-naval discussions about the Second World War. Military leaders, campaigns, weapons, etc.
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aurora
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Re: Pilot Aces of World War II

Postby aurora » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:46 am

Vis a vis the German ace Joachim Marseilles claimed a high kill score against the RAF in North Africa. Research conducted several years ago casts great doubt on his claims- because he claimed to have shot down RAF fighters where none were operational.!!!
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Pilot Aces of World War II

Postby Dave Saxton » Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:36 pm

German claims conformation proccess was far more severe than that used by the Allies in any theator. This was a result of the obvious over claiming during the Battle of Britian (by both sides). Many legitimate claims were rejected because of this, off setting the typical over claims made in good faith which always seemed to happen for all airforces during WWII. They were no shared kills and ground kills didn't count for the Germans. I see no reason to call into question the record of Hartman, Rall, and other Greenhearts aces. Likewise, Caldwell has done extensive study of the claims of the channel coast geschweders (JG2 and JG26) vs Allied records and found that the Allied losses in mainy cases were actually heavier than the German claims.

The German aces racked up such high scores because they flew more missions. They flew until the war ended or until they got killed or badly wounded. Assuming they didn't get shot down or something beforehand, Allied aces flew until they reached so many combat flight hours and they rotated out. Allied and German aces typically scored about the same per missions flown.
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aurora
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Re: Pilot Aces of World War II

Postby aurora » Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:56 pm

I agree Dave that the Luftwaffe had, at least in theory, a very stringent approval process for the confirmation of aerial victories (and I do accept that German aces flew to the end of the war or death,whichever came sooner).:-

1) Without a witness, a Luftwaffe fighter pilot had no chance to have his victory claim confirmed. Such a claim, even if filed, would not pass beyond group level.

2) The final destruction or explosion of an enemy aircraft in the air, or bail-out of the pilot, had to be observed either on gun-camera film or by at least one other human witness. The witness could be the German pilot's wingman, another in the squadron, or an observer on the ground.

In practice, however, even in the early stages of the war, overclaiming by the Luftwaffe did occur. However as the war entered its final, chaotic phase in 1945, many German aces' claims from late 1944 onward were left unvalidated due to the breakdown in administration within the Luftwaffe, and at times bore little relationship to reality?????

Sourced from Wikipedia
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Pilot Aces of World War II

Postby Dave Saxton » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:05 pm

aurora wrote:In practice, however, even in the early stages of the war, overclaiming by the Luftwaffe did occur. [b]


Yes of course. This is an intractable problem. The same occured for the Allies. It was because of the over claiming that the more stringent protocols were instituted in the Luftwaffe. The Allies knew about their own pilots over claiming from Ultra but allowed it to continue because it helped morale and fighting spirit. The generals secretly used the true numbers in their analysis, however.

However as the war entered its final, chaotic phase in 1945, many German aces' claims from late 1944 onward were left unvalidated due to the breakdown in administration within the Luftwaffe, and at times bore little relationship to reality?????


By that point in time the Experten had already compiled their records for the most part, or they were dead or in hospital. It's irrelavant to the scores of the Experten. By that point in time the Jagdwaffe wasn't making very many claims-they were just trying to stay alive, or scounge up a few liters of avgas, or try to find out if their families in their home town were still alive, or if they had anything to eat.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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aurora
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Re: Pilot Aces of World War II

Postby aurora » Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:05 pm

Quote
"By that point in time the Experten had already compiled their records for the most part, or they were dead or in hospital. It's irrelavant to the scores of the Experten. By that point in time the Jagdwaffe wasn't making very many claims-they were just trying to stay alive, or scounge up a few liters of avgas, or try to find out if their families in their home town were still alive, or if they had anything to eat".

All of which may well be true and yes- it was very likely irrelevant to those Experten alive or dead; but we are only discussing the assessment of statistics,which with the passage of time; they too become irrelevant.
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