Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

[Byron Angel]

I doubt he was greatly superior in terms of resources or troops at Alam Halfa either.

..... I'm not sure what you deem to be >>greatly<< superior, but 8th Army was most certainly comfortably superior in almost all respects to Rommel's forces on the night that he launched his Alam Halfa attack - more and fresher infantry thanks to recent reinforcements, and approximately a 2:1 superiority in effective tanks (the relative artillery situation is unclear). In addition, they were infinitely better situated in terms of logistical support, airpower, and intelligence (ULTRA having given Rommel's game away before he ever launched it).


Byron

[mkenny]

and intelligence (ULTRA having given Rommel's game away before he ever launched it).

Rommel was also reading the British messages. Both through his own Radio Intercept stations and the foolhardinesss of an American Diplomat. It is not, as is often claimed, as though this spying was confined to one side.

[minoru genda]

The Germans even needed Russian help to conquer Poland...

Yes, without the Soviet help they wouldn't have conquered Poland.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Genda:

Yes, without the Soviet help they wouldn't have conquered Poland.

Issue already covered:

Karl Heidenreich:

...That´s deceiving at the best and, you know what?, even the allied fans guys here in this very forum knows how mistaken you are. Poland was split because of a previous pact with the Soviets ....The Germans could have taken Poland themselves, it was defeated but geo politics were far more important. Remember Clausewitz´s definition: "War is the continuation of politics by other means".

[Byron Angel]

and intelligence (ULTRA having given Rommel's game away before he ever launched it).

Rommel was also reading the British messages. Both through his own Radio Intercept stations and the foolhardinesss of an American Diplomat. It is not, as is often claimed, as though this spying was confined to one side.

..... The successful sigint efforts of the Brandenbergers and separate successes of both the Germans and Italians in penetrating the US diplomatic "Black Code" are well known. But In terms of the Alam Halfa fight, which I was addressing specifically, I stand by my comment. The British knew exactly when and where to expect the German thrust.


Byron

[RF]

In the UK we are still fairly free of what George Orwell (who wrote "Animal Farm", and "1984" ) described as "thought-crime" although some of the recent law here on Child-molestation and in regard to radical Islamism is getting uncomfortably close to that .

I beg to differ. We already have thought crime, only it is in the guise of political correctness, which restricts our freedom of speech and expression and turns ordinary breaches of the criminal law unnecessarily into political crimes. This distsorts the allocation and utilisation of police resources. so that other crime isn't properly dealt with, either by police or the courts.

[mkenny]

Yes, without the Soviet help they wouldn't have conquered Poland.

The fact is that 2 Armies invaded Poland not one. Thus Germany did not defeat Poland on her own.....
Nor did she occupy all of France in 1940............
Never defeated Britain............
Failed in Russia.......

It seems that though they start things the Germans could not finish the job.

[minoru genda]

Yes, without the Soviet help they wouldn't have conquered Poland.

The fact is that 2 Armies invaded Poland not one. Thus Germany did not defeat Poland on her own.....
Nor did she occupy all of France in 1940............
Never defeated Britain............
Failed in Russia.......

It seems that though they start things the Germans could not finish the job.

I agree. These Germans couldn't do anthing on her own.
I wonder though why the British needed American and Canadian help at Normandy.
Another fact is that 5 armies invaded Germany not one. Thus the UK did not defeat Germany on her own....
Nor did the British ocuppy all of Germany in 1945........

[mkenny]

I wonder though why the British needed American and Canadian help at Normandy.

Let me repeat I have no problems admiting the Allied victory was a team effort. I make no claims of superior anything.
It seems others have great difficulty accepting any German setback without finding a legion of excuses to explain it away.

Another fact is that 5 armies invaded Germany not one. Thus the UK did not defeat Germany on her own....
Nor did the British ocuppy all of Germany in 1945........

Correct...however the UK did end up as one of the victors. Something Germany never managed!

[RF]

The fact is that 2 Armies invaded Poland not one. Thus Germany did not defeat Poland on her own.....
Nor did she occupy all of France in 1940............

It seems that though they start things the Germans could not finish the job.

The Soviets only invaded eastern Poland on 17th September 1939 after the regular Polish Army was either encircled or destroyed, bottled up in Warsaw, or retreating over the border into Romania. Clearly the Germans won here, the Soviet ''back up'' was surplus to requirements. Indeed some German units had to withdraw from the territory already allocated to the Soviets under the Non-aggression Pact.

As for France, the Germans overran two-thirds of France by 22nd June 1940. They pulled back out of some of this territory in recognising Vichy, that was Hitler's choice. The whole of France, including Corsica, was occupied in November 1942.

The failure to ''finish the job'' was not the fault of the Heer, but due to the mistakes of the Fuhrer.

[RF]

I wonder though why the British needed American and Canadian help at Normandy.

This really is a daft question, isn't it?

[Karl Heidenreich]

mkenny:

The fact is that 2 Armies invaded Poland not one. Thus Germany did not defeat Poland on her own.....
Nor did she occupy all of France in 1940............
Never defeated Britain............
Failed in Russia.......

It seems that though they start things the Germans could not finish the job.

I thought this was over with! Let´s not get started with such things, please. During weekdays I´m awfully bussy to be dealilng with these issues, despite the fact that I don´t know if it´s any worth.

Let´s move on!

[mkenny]

The failure to ''finish the job'' was not the fault of the Heer, but due to the mistakes of the Fuhrer.

I wondered when I would next hear that...........

[mkenny]

[:
Another fact is that 5 armies invaded Germany not one. ..

Was that German, Finish, Italian, Hungarian, Rumanian...........oh no that was Russia, my mistake.

[minoru genda]

mkenny,

The problem with you is that you contradict yourself.
When someone attributes the German defeat to Hitler, numerical inferiority, being outnumbered most of the time, and such things, you don't waste a second to accuse others of giving "German fan-boy excuses". Yet, when you were asked about why the Germans lost you reluctantly answered with the same excuses! :

"If pushed then the reason is simple, monumental arrogance. How any one nation thinks it can take on everyone and come out victorious is beyond me. Clearly the leaders in Germany were insane and those in power below them cowardly for not getting rid of the madmen".

Le't see:
"one nation thinks it can take on everyone"- this sounds like one single nation is being outnumbered, right?
"leaders in Germany were insane" - This sounds like not only Hitler but all nazi leaders are to blame, right?

So, where is the problem? Are you a "German fan-boy"?