Revisionist tendencies and Ambrose Sindrome

[Karl Heidenreich]

alecsandros:

However, the big problems that concern me for some time are not related to it: there will always be a difference between well-informed people (and that constantly keep themselves informed) and the others. For the others Ambrose Syndrome can easily morph into a full-state denial, a complete amnesia and a total replacement of the German combat performance by skewed-up statistics, complete relativisation of battles and ultimately futile discussions about how much luck the Germans had (early war).

And the Syndrome not only affects Germany but also the USA itself. If you analyse the way some historical facts are written or described there is a tendency to praise guys like Eisenhower, Bradley and Marshall... all of them seriously close to the political stablishment in Washington by the time of the war. All of them political correct. But the revisionists tendencies try to hide personalities as those of McArthur, LeMay and Patton. It obvious that these guys are controversial in every sense. McArthur can hardly be assumed as the archetypical democratic ideal; LeMay used to burn hundred of thousands of inocent civilians alive in air raids; Patton, even being the most succesfull Army commander of WWII and the one guy that engaged and defeated more German units and captured more German soldiers, the guy that rescued the 101 Airborne at Bastogne, he was the one guy that came with "I think we fought the wrong guys all along" statement. Curious how he died, too, before turning in a real embarrasment. That´s why Ambrose or the other revisionists write books about the 101 or the Rangers but not Third Army nor LeMay´s tactics and, when unavoidable, it came to McArthur it all goes to defend Trumann´s decision of get rid of him. Of course nothing is said of Inchon and how Mac hit the beaches with no official sanction of Truman or Marshall, because the cowardly political stablishment was expecting this to be disaster and destroy Mac forever. That´s is not mentioned and due to be forgotten while we read tons of paper on how comfortable soldiers were in the presence of Ike before hitting Normandy...

[Bgile]

Where are the monuments in Berlin or wherever else giving some kind of recognition for more than 6 million German deaths in the war? Where is the Iwo Jima monument equivalent for the Germans that were in combats such as Stalingrad, Kursk or Lake Balaton? In the US there are hundreds of monuments giving proper recognition to soldiers or actions that took place in WWII.

Germany lost the war, Karl. One doesn't usually construct a bunch of monuments after one is totally defeated in a war. The German people were completely ashamed of what happened in their name, and I think to most of them what actually happened in the Holocaust was a terrible shock that generation never got over. They were complicit in that. They let it happen, and that generation knows that.

Japan is the same way, only more so. They didn't perpetrate a Holocaust, but are still afraid of their military tradition and what it caused, which is why they haven't changed their constitution yet to allow a more "normal" military establishment.

[lwd]

... ..... Good God! Don't take creatively bankrupt and morally cowardly Hollywood as being representative of the feelings of the American public; President Reagan's appearance at the ceremony honoring German war dead moved me deeply. ....

While I agree to a large extent with the first (alhough it's a bit simplistic) I find the whole deeply ironic.

[lwd]

... There is one outstanding statistic. The kill-ratio of German Soldiers to civilians will never be equalled.....

I'm not at all sure of that. Indeed depending on how it is framed they may not ever have even had the highest.

[Karl Heidenreich]

I do believe that in the XX Century it were the "allied" regimes of China and Russia those which troops commited the greatest extent of war crimes and/or genocide. Stalin´s account was for around 10-20 million and Zedong´s for a "little bit" more.

[Bgile]

I do believe that in the XX Century it were the "allied" regimes of China and Russia those which troops commited the greatest extent of war crimes and/or genocide. Stalin´s account was for around 10-20 million and Zedong´s for a "little bit" more.

Not sure if I would label them war crimes or Genocide, but it's hard to find examples of greater ruthlessness and brutality. I think Stalin at least exceeded Hitler by quite a bit in that regard.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bgile:

Germany lost the war, Karl. One doesn't usually construct a bunch of monuments after one is totally defeated in a war. The German people were completely ashamed of what happened in their name, and I think to most of them what actually happened in the Holocaust was a terrible shock that generation never got over. They were complicit in that. They let it happen, and that generation knows that.

So what? The US lost the Vietnam war and commited war crimes there, such as My Lai. But there is a monument not to glorify those bad actions but to recognize those fallen. I´m saying that if the US had a monument for 59,000 fatalities in a 10 year war then the Germans could be allowed to have their own monument for 6 + million fatalities in a six year war.

And I emphatize: "allowed". Because I suspect that if someone comes to the idea of building a monument for the Luftwaffe or Kriegmarine or, God forbids, the Heer then the UN or Simon Weisenthal foundation or the Israeli Goverment or Obama will scream: Fascism!

[lwd]

I do believe that in the XX Century it were the "allied" regimes of China and Russia those which troops commited the greatest extent of war crimes and/or genocide. Stalin´s account was for around 10-20 million and Zedong´s for a "little bit" more.

Well the original statement refered to the soldier to civilian kill ratio. In that regard the Mongols are going to be fairly high on the list. More recently during WWII the Japanese would also be high. Indeed even the US and Britain would be pretty high as the bombing campaigns killed quite a few civilians. I don't see China at least the Nationalist government from WWII being all that high on the list. This is not the same as a "war crime" or genocide. Now it may depend on whether or not you consider all civilians or only those of opponents. In the former case Pol Pot's troops may have the highest although the question there is was it troops or security agencies doing the killing.

[Bgile]

Bgile:

Germany lost the war, Karl. One doesn't usually construct a bunch of monuments after one is totally defeated in a war. The German people were completely ashamed of what happened in their name, and I think to most of them what actually happened in the Holocaust was a terrible shock that generation never got over. They were complicit in that. They let it happen, and that generation knows that.

So what? The US lost the Vietnam war and commited war crimes there, such as My Lai. But there is a monument not to glorify those bad actions but to recognize those fallen. I´m saying that if the US had a monument for 59,000 fatalities in a 10 year war then the Germans could be allowed to have their own monument for 6 + million fatalities in a six year war.

And I emphatize: "allowed". Because I suspect that if someone comes to the idea of building a monument for the Luftwaffe or Kriegmarine or, God forbids, the Heer then the UN or Simon Weisenthal foundation or the Israeli Goverment or Obama will scream: Fascism!

I don't think that is true. If it were tastefully done and was simply a memorial to the fallen, few people would complain. The US Vietnam Memorial for example, doesn't imply anything about whether the war was a good idea, it just honors those who gave their lives.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bgile:

I don't think that is true. If it were tastefully done and was simply a memorial to the fallen, few people would complain. The US Vietnam Memorial for example, doesn't imply anything about whether the war was a good idea, it just honors those who gave their lives.

Exactly the point. I don´t think I have mentioned to construct a gloryfing monument but one that in honor of 6 million deaths. Maybe some smaller ones in remembrance of great military feats. No swatiskas, no warmongering statues of soldiers advancing over so many countries, etc. etc. A field full of marble cutted stones for those burned alive in Dresden, whatever is proper.

Then, maybe just an episode of History Channel Air Aces (Dogfight?) regarding the greatest fighter pilots in History, things like that. Hollywood saying the thruth for a change...

[mkenny]

Indeed even the US and Britain would be pretty high as the bombing campaigns killed quite a few civilians.

I have never seen a bombing victim list that approaches even a million so the 10 million dead Soviet Civilains (just one example) keep Germany on top of the list.

At the end of the day this has turned into the typical one eyed appraisal of the German Army. It is just like saying Ted Bundy was a great guy-if you ignore his little problem with women.

[VeenenbergR]

Karl,

Also more than 8 million dead..... not 7 million as most sources like authorities as Rüdiger Overmars (5,3 military and 1,7 civilian dead) always state...also about 10% of the total population of Greater Germany died in WWII. Of the 5,3 million military about 2 million are the MISSING in or after action and 1/2 million deads because of sickness, suicide, executions.
Admittedly "only" 650.000 died as POW's (75% in the USSR) but Rüdiger Overmars thinks about (at least) 1million of them also died in Soviet captivity. So of each German soldier taken POW 50% died after imprisonment by hands of the Soviets (33% of those taken POW in 1945). The Western Allies handed over ca 1,2 million POWs to the Soviets in and after May 1945.

You just mentioned what I ment with NO commemoration or whatsoever!!!! The dying and killing grounds of the Germans (soldiers ans civilians alike) are NOT officially memorized (no monuments) by themselves or their former enemies. Halbe is the largest cemetery on present German soil. In the last week of the war the 9th Army of 200.000 was wiped out within 10 days. The 6th and 4th Pz Armies in Stalingrad suffered the same terrible casualties but it took 11 weeks to finish them off.
108.000 POw's died in camps near Stalingrad, The Ural and Siberia. No memorial site is ever erected for those which died in this ultimate hell. The same is true for the poor basterds which died with 100's of thousands in the other sites of ultimate horror: Cherkassy, Sevastopol, Brody, Bobruisk, Vitebsk, Minsk, Vilnius, Falaise, Kishinev (in only 10 days 200.000 were vanquished, missing....), Budapest, Danzig, Königsberg, Heiligenbeil, Berlin, Breslau and Prague and then the starvation camps in Yugoslavia, the Rhine Valley, France and the Soviet Union. The Webling or Chenogne incidents are well known, but there were in reality thousands of Webling incidents and many much greater than that.

Mckenny: about those shootings of prisoners: 2 million members of the Wehrmacht are still missing and those died in battle not always did so. There are thousands of survivors which told of the shootings and mass executions they escaped by sheer luck.... their enemies will not admit this. The US archives intentionally destroyed proof of the executions.
Members of the Luftwaffe orr SS were shot on the spot the moment they fell in Russian hands. This is a widely accepted picture and even acknowledged by the Russians nowadays. The French admit that they paid few attention to German POW's, which starved like flies....boys of 16, 17 years. Very tragic and totally inhumane.

Us and British dying grounds dwindle to those of the Germans. They endured and lost for nothing....... even the rememberings are lost, wiped out. It never happened.

The 5 most terrible sinkings are not officially accepted: Wilhelm Gustloff with over 10.000 dead is the most horrible and terrible ship sinking in the history.... the Goya, Steuben, Totila, Teja and Cap Arkona all in excess of 4000 dead.... The mass bombardements (= killings) of Hamburg (43), Hannover (43); Dresden (45), Berlin (45), Magdeburg (45) and...Swinemünde (45) were with Tokio, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were paramount in history.

If walking through Berlin and studying pre war photographs virtually each House, that survived, has been transformed in a more "primitive" state and missing its historic details... If looking where the Reichs Chancellery once stood NO SINGLE PLAQUETTE is there to be found. The former great buildings of Berlin are almost all gone, evaporated......why they were not rebuild or restored to former glory remains an open question.This is weird in the extreme.
The same is true for the Obersalzberg in Berchtesgaden and all other important cities. Germany has been transformed to "simplicity". Few is left to be seen.
The finest German aircraft of WWII can be admired in musea in Norway, Australia, South Africa, the USA, Britain aso but NOT in Germany itself. For Armor France (Saumur), Finland, Switserland and Russia can be added to that.

Virtually no trace of the 3rd Reich is there. German modells of Revell leave out the Swastika on the tail of the aircraft. Not historically accurate and weird again.

It is a strange strange world.

R.

[Byron Angel]

VeenenbergR wrote - "The finest German aircraft can be admired in musea in Norway, Australia, South Africa, the USA, Britain aso but NOT in Germany itself."


..... The Deutsches Technisches Museum does have very beautifully restored examples of the Me-262 and Me-109E and G on exhibit and the nearby aviation museum in Oberschleissheim features a restored Spanish He-111. There are other WW2 German aircraft scattered about here and there in other German museums. But I do agree that there is really no single premier class museum dedicated to the Luftwaffe of WW2.

On a related note, one of my regrets is that war guilt feelings intervened to prevent the return of the battle cruiser GOEBEN as a memorial ship to the Federal Republic of Germany. Her scrapping in the early 70's was an insult to history and posterity IMO.


Byron

[lwd]

Indeed even the US and Britain would be pretty high as the bombing campaigns killed quite a few civilians.

I have never seen a bombing victim list that approaches even a million so the 10 million dead Soviet Civilains (just one example) keep Germany on top of the list.
....

But you said ratio and depending on what numbers you include ie if you look only at the RAF the ratio might be pretty high of course if you only want to callculate the SS it's going to go through the roof. And Japan is almost assuredly higher than Germany on the list if the ratio is total civilians kill / total military manpower (or even worse total army size). They had fewer soldiers and killed more civilians. Like wise Pol Pot had a pretty small military compared to WWII Germany so his ratio might be higher as well.

[boredatwork]

It took four more years for three empires, USA, British and Russia, almost half of the world surface and population and almost all the wealth and natural (oil) resources to beat a country a little bigger than Texas without ZERO natural resources.

I notice you make no mention of Rumania, Hungary, Italy, Finland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Japan and the millions of other nationals who contributed to the Axis war effort either willingly or unwillingly... a mere oversight on your part or reverse "Ambrose Syndrome" because "Germany alone against the world" fits in better with your bias?

For that matetr Germany produces iron ore, coal, potash, timber, lignite, uranium, copper, natural gas, salt, nickel... Hardly "ZERO" natural resources, especially when compared to say Japan...

Where are the monuments in Berlin or wherever else giving some kind of recognition for more than 6 million German deaths in the war?

Google "German War Memorials" or "German War Cemetaries" I did and came across hundreds... or do they not count as "some kind of recognition?"

The 5 most terrible sinkings are not officially accepted: Wilhelm Gustloff with over 10.000 dead is the most horrible and terrible ship sinking in the history....

Not officially accepted by whom? Publisists for Titanic related merchandice maybe but any moderately competant history of the end of the 3rd Reich that I've read usually gives them at least a line. By the way what is your source for "over 10.000 dead?" Any source I've read notes that accurate accounting was never done and estimates range from 5,000-9,400 dead from 6,000 - 10,600 on board at the time.