Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

Non-naval discussions about the Second World War. Military leaders, campaigns, weapons, etc.
madmike
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

Post by madmike »

Thanks lwd, for your post on stabilized and IR mounted tanks, i can find info on the 90mm fitted with a stabilized mount, but not on the early Sherman 75mm,
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

Post by Bgile »

To be fair, I think the first really successful stabilized system on a US Tank appeared on the M60A1. Prior systems weren't terribly reliable and/or the tank had to be on very smooth terrain to fire effectively on the move.
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

Post by lwd »

The Sherman's stabalization was only in one axis I beleive and it took considerable training to use to good effect. I believe Abrams was a real believer in it and his troops used it to good effect. Others simply didn't bother with it.
From wiki at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman
The Sherman evolved from the Grant and Lee medium tanks, which had an unusual side-sponson mounted 75 mm gun. It retained much of the previous mechanical design, but added the first American main 75 mm gun mounted on a fully traversing turret, with a gyrostabilizer enabling the crew to fire with reasonable accuracy while the tank was on the move ...
madmike
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

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RF, wrote," Quite clearly the nazies would be booted out and replaced by the leaders of the Bomb Plot conspirators, and Rommel would have sought a negotiated ceasefire to stop the war. The only sane solution really".

I would agree it would be the sane solution, But i think it would not be so easy, The Soviets and the countries occupied by Germany would not be easily appeased, I can see Rommel and Co, outing the Nazis , But i think Rommel would negotiate a peace with the western allies,But not with Soviets, after what had happened (butchery) on the eastern front, i think the major problem for a Rommel led Germany if they negotiated a peace, Would be how to stop the soviets, And if he (Rommel) could get help from the west in the on going fight with the soviets, 1. Would the western allies negotiate a peace that still left the Germans fully armed and fighting the soviets, 2. Would the western allies turn on Russia and support/fight alongside the Germans, Remembering that the western allies are still fighting japan. 3. how much longer would WWII have gone on.

and how much would allied air power (long range heavy bombers) effect the out come ?
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

Post by Bgile »

I believe the Allies had already agreed not to negotiate a separate Peace with Germany.
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RF
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

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Bgile wrote:I believe the Allies had already agreed not to negotiate a separate Peace with Germany.
On the assumption the nazies remained in control. But what if they didn't? They accepted Italian surrender on a conditional basis once Mussolini was no longer in power without consulting the Russians (while a substantial number of Italian troops were engaged on the Eastern Front).

In WW1 the British (and almost certainly the French although they didn't specifically demand it) wanted to see the Kaiser hanged for starting the war. But as soon as the Kaiser abdicated on 9 November 1918 and the following day fled to exile in Holland, he was virtually forgotten and completely overlooked in the Armistice arrangements.

Immediate pragmatism does tend to overule the hardline posturing.

And don't forget that the unconditional surrender of Japan in the end became conditional on Hirohito remaining as emporer.
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RF
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

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madmike wrote:
The Soviets and the countries occupied by Germany would not be easily appeased, I can see Rommel and Co, outing the Nazis , But i think Rommel would negotiate a peace with the western allies,But not with Soviets, after what had happened (butchery) on the eastern front, i think the major problem for a Rommel led Germany if they negotiated a peace, Would be how to stop the soviets,
Do the Soviets (Stalin) want an immediate end to the war in 1944, or go on to achieve revenge?

I think there would have been an arrangement cobbled together, on much the same basis as the armistice of November 1918 - all the occuipied countries are liberated and Germany disarmed but without formal unconditional surrender. Germany would still have the Oder-Niesse line as its eastern border with Poland, and Soviet forces moving into occupation up to that line..... Not really that different from what happened in 1945, particulary as an armistice would have led to some form of four power occupation of Germany and Austria, for once Germany was disarmed the Germans would no longer have any influence on the matter.
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

Post by Thorsten Wahl »

THE COMBAT EFFECTIVENESS OF GERMAN HEAVY TANK BATTALIONS IN WORLD WAR II
A thesis presented to the Faculty of the U.S. Army
Command and General Staff College in partial
fulfillment of the requirements for the
degree
MASTER OF MILITARY ART AND SCIENCE
Military History

SUBJECT TERMS
Combat effectiveness; Germany; World War 1939-1945; heavy tanks; tanks; battalion; German Army; tank warfare

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-b...n=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

I think this study contains somewhat more substance than average.
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

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Thorsten,

The link isn't working for me.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Thorsten,

I cannot open the link and I bet it has important information for all of us.
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Thorsten Wahl
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

Post by Thorsten Wahl »

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRec ... =ADA415948
klick on handle
The kill ratio of heavy tank battalions when measured against Tigers lost in direct combat is an impressive 12.2 to 1. The ratio as measured against all Tigers lost, regardless of reason, is still a credible 5.4 to 1 kill ratio.
but
One hour of Tiger operation requires ten hours of maintenance.
plain copy and paste from description
Report Date : 2002
Pagination or Media Count : 150
Abstract : This thesis is a historical analysis of the combat effectiveness of the German schwere Panzer-Abteilung or Heavy Tank Battalions during World War II. During the course of World War II, the German Army developed heavy tank battalions to fulfill the concept of breaking through enemy defenses so faster, lighter mechanized forces could exploit the rupture. These heavy tank battalions had several different tables of organization, but were always centered around either the Tiger or the Tiger II tank. They fought in virtually every theater of Europe against every enemy of Germany. Ultimately, the German military created eleven Army and three Waffen-SS heavy tank battalions. Of the Army battalions, the German command fielded ten as independent battalions, which were allocated to Army Groups as needed. The German Army assigned the last heavy tank battalion as an organic unit of the elite Panzer Grenadier Division Grossdeutschland. The Waffen-SS allocated all of their battalions to a different Waffen-SS Corps. Because these units were not fielded until late in 1942, they did not participate in Germany's major offensive operations that dominated the early part of World War II. Germany's strategic situation after mid-1943 forced their military onto the defensive. Consequently, there are very few instances when heavy tank battalions attacked as a breakthrough force. During the latter part of the war, they were used in many different ways to provide defensive assistance along very wide frontages. This study assesses the German heavy tank battalions as generally effective, primarily because of the high kill ratio they achieved. However, based upon observations from a wide variety of examples, this study also outlines several areas where changes may have increased their effectiveness.



or google for
"THE COMBAT EFFECTIVENESS OF GERMAN HEAVY TANK BATTALIONS IN WORLD WAR II"
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Thorsten,

Thank you very much for such a valuable and professional-made report on the German Heavy Tank batallions. Your information is always superb and far superior.

Regards,

Karl
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Bgile
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

Post by Bgile »

Thanks for the reference!
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RF
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

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Hello Karl, I thought we'd lost you.....
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Michael Wittman and Tiger tanks

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

RF:
Hello Karl, I thought we'd lost you.....
Nope. Not lost. I still follow the forum but decline to participate, that's all.

Very best regards friend
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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