Last battle between England and Scotland

Armed conflicts in the history of humanity from the ancient times to the 20th Century.
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RF
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Last battle between England and Scotland

Postby RF » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:40 am

In the thread on military historical dates Karl claims that the Battle of Culloden in 1746 was ''debateable'' as a battle between England and Scotland.

The facts are that the Jacobite rebellion was based on the Stuart (Scottish ) line of succession to the combined English and Scottish thrones. That direct line of succession ended on the death of Queen Anne, who had no issue, and her successor was the German George I.
The Jacobites intended to reinstate the Scottish line of succession, by raising rebellion in Scotland. Having done that the Scottish clans invaded England in the expectation of raising support there.They failed to raise any support, and having got as far south as Derby had to retreat all the way back into Scotland.

The Battle of Culloden thus was the outcome of a Scottish invasion of England, the battle resulting in the re-imposition of the rule in Scotland by the house of Saxa-Coburg-Gotha in place of the Stuarts.

I don't think that the fact that the winning side included Scots detracts from the fact that it was an England versus Scotland conflict.
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neil hilton
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Re: Last battle between England and Scotland

Postby neil hilton » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:49 am

Wasn't George 1st of house Hannover?
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Re: Last battle between England and Scotland

Postby lwd » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:16 pm

But weren't there English on the Jacobites side as well? Indeed Charlie wanted all of Great Britain not just Scotland. I'm playing devils advocate here to some extent as I think both views are valid but perhaps not equally so.

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Re: Last battle between England and Scotland

Postby RF » Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:43 am

neil hilton wrote:Wasn't George 1st of house Hannover?


Yes. Saxa-Coburg-Gotha was the rather long winded family name, which persisted in Britain as the surname of the Royal Family until it was changed to Windsor in January 1918.
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Re: Last battle between England and Scotland

Postby RF » Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:51 am

lwd wrote:But weren't there English on the Jacobites side as well? Indeed Charlie wanted all of Great Britain not just Scotland. I'm playing devils advocate here to some extent as I think both views are valid but perhaps not equally so.


The Jacobites wanted English support, but very little came in their abortive invasion of England. Had they penetrated further south and taken their opportunity to seize London things might have changed. But most of their potential support sat on the fence, waiting to see whether they would be backing a winner...or a loser. They called it right.

Charles Stuart claimed the throne as Charles III by right of blood succession from James II. But he was seen in England as a pretender...a chancer. He never looked like succeeding. Hence lack of support. His rebellion and campaign was essentially a Scottish rather than British affair.
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Re: Last battle between England and Scotland

Postby aurora » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:44 pm

Charles Stuart's army consisted largely of Scottish Highlanders, as well as a number of Lowland Scots and a small detachment of Englishmen from Manchester. The Jacobites were supported and supplied by the Kingdom of France; French and Irish units loyal to France were part of the Jacobite army. The Government force was mostly English, but also included both Highland and Lowland Scots, a battalion of Ulstermen and a small number of Hessians and Austrians.

Meeting on Drumossie Moor, the battle was both quick and bloody, taking place within an hour. Following an unsuccessful Highland charge against the Government lines, the Jacobites were routed and driven from the field.Between 1,500 and 2,000 Jacobites were killed or wounded in the brief time, while Government losses were lighter with 50 dead and 259 wounded.

The aftermath of the battle and subsequent crackdown on Jacobitism was brutal, earning Cumberland the sobriquet "Butcher". Efforts were taken to further integrate Scotland into Great Britain; civil penalties were introduced to weaken Gaelic culture and attack the Scottish clan system.
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RF
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Re: Last battle between England and Scotland

Postby RF » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:51 pm

aurora wrote: Meeting on Drumossie Moor, the battle was both quick and bloody, taking place within an hour. Following an unsuccessful Highland charge against the Government lines, the Jacobites were routed and driven from the field.Between 1,500 and 2,000 Jacobites were killed or wounded in the brief time, while Government losses were lighter with 50 dead and 259 wounded.


Putting it this way, it has very strong similarities to the 1685 Battle of Sedgemore, the last full scale battle to take place in England, which saw the end of the Monmouth Rebellion and followed by Judge Jefferies ''Bloody Assizes''.
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Re: Last battle between England and Scotland

Postby aurora » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:37 pm

Thank you RF-I posted the sharp details to indicate the English contingent fighting with the Jacobites.

NB.After Sedgemoor Monmouth's troops were captured and imprisoned in St Mary's Parish Church in Westonzoyland, while others were hunted and shot in the ditches where they were hiding. More were hung from gibbets erected along the roadside.

The royalist troops were rewarded with Feversham being made a Knight of the Garter, Churchill promoted to Major-General and Henry Shires of the artillery receiving a Knighthood. Other soldiers, particularly those that had been wounded, received allowances ranging from £5 to £80. Some of the wounded were amongst the first to be treated at the newly opened Royal Hospital Chelsea.
Monmouth was caught at Ringway and taken to the Tower where,after several blows with the axe-beheaded
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RF
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Re: Last battle between England and Scotland

Postby RF » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:20 pm

aurora wrote: More were hung from gibbets erected along the roadside.


22 were hanged, in particular the Dutch master gunner whose fire from the four small cannon caused the majority of the Royalist Army casualties, who perhaps foolishly had refused to leave his position after dismissing his gun crews.

Also worthy of mention were ''Kirke's Lambs'' - the Tangier Regiment commanded by Colonel Percy Kirke, so called from their recent service in Tangier which had sufficiently brutalised its troops so that they carried out most of the immediate reprisals on the populace before Judge Jeffries turned up to finish the job.
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Re: Last battle between England and Scotland

Postby aurora » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:34 am

Thank you RF for fleshing out the details of Sedgemoor and it's grim aftermath.It seems the soldiery of that time and Culloden were so brutalised themselves-that they could perpetrate such monstrous atrocities
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RF
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Re: Last battle between England and Scotland

Postby RF » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:58 pm

It is however fairly typical of civil war.

Look at the brutalities committed in the American Civil War, or the Spanish Civil War for example.
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aurora
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Re: Last battle between England and Scotland

Postby aurora » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:45 pm

Yes RF- I thought the Spanish Civil War was the worst-each side was murderous to the other- even throwing their enemies off bridges to save bullets- such as Ronda in Andalusia.
Quo Fata Vocant-Whither the Fates call

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