War time drydock construction in Germany

Armed conflicts in the history of humanity from the ancient times to the 20th Century.
sineatimorar
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War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby sineatimorar » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:37 pm

As part of my reseach into H class story. I was wondering if the other drydocks under construction as war was declared were all of similar size to Elbe 17 in Hamburg. How many what was there projected commissioning dates initially. I have I.D. 4 so far with minimal info on them other than some aerial photos.

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Re: War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby sineatimorar » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:14 pm

The similarities between the preparations of German docks is striking similar in it scope to the Japanese upgrades under taken to operate Yamato class. Is this simply due to size of the H39 series or were there plans that early on to increase the size of subsequent classes? I think will check on the size of the japanese dry docks that were to be used.

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Re: War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby RF » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:36 pm

You may wish to consider other factors in this rather than simply dry dock construction.

For example the availability of skilled labour and materials for this work, together with labour productivity. The record in both Germany and Japan on this wasn't particulary good.
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Re: War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby sineatimorar » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:10 pm

Now let see. Poor productivity lacking in skill yet the Japanese completed multiple port up grades to their naval bases and oh yes by and by finished two of the largest battleships in under three years, and a economy 9% that of the USA.
And oh yes managed to fumble their way across the Pacific ocean in secret to a point where they caught the greatest economic power seen to date with their collective weenies in their respective hands. Funny how unskilled that little exercise was considering American code breakers had regularly cracked various secure japanese codes since before 1928.

Now for Germany. A country who's metal smiths produced what is considered the Gold standard for high quality armour that the rest of the world tried to copy. In 1935 produced 76% of the total output of the USA steel production. Approximately 9 million tons of steel. The UK only reached that amount from 1939. My my poor productivity that. Now what else? By 1944 produced the first production jet fighter, the first ballistic missile, the first cruise missile, the first guide bombs, the first operational surface to air missile, the first phased array radar, the first mechanical cipher machine. The snorkle for subs and the fastest submerge submarine of the war and the design that was the basis of the first nuclear sub in 1954 by the USA. Not very skilled were they with all those inventions were they. Oh by and by only navy to activily measure muzzle velocity of a operational battleship in combat conditions. The rest of world had to inferred by other measurements that little nugget of information.

Other than that I could replace the response to the previous post with one word "Bar-hum-bug"!

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Re: War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby RF » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:26 pm

Maybe it is bar humbug. Yet the Germans and Japanese were still on the losing side in spite of all the achievements you cite, plus all the advantages the aggressor has in starting the war and choosing where to strike, plus also the benefits of then looting economically the territories they conquered.

What you are not considering is that fully mobilised each of the UK, the USA and the USSR were far more productive man for man than the Axis, especially when you also consider that the Axis powers had millions of extra workers available to provide slave labour. And also the failure of the Axis to fully utilise the female labour force

And you don't mention the one final decisive weapon - partly designed by people who escaped persecution in Axis countries, depriving the Axis of getting the weapon first....

One of the ironies I find with fascism is that it is an ideology that preaches maximum efficiency, yet whereever it was in power for any length of time it faltered through corruption, inertia and its leaders not being very intelligent or capable. They used the abilities of subordinate individuals and organisations such as the Heer to good effect, but once spent they had no answers.
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Re: War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby sineatimorar » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:21 am

Yeh your right about the multi-faceted nature of facist ideology. There was the political ideology that appealed to German sense of order, and productivity, their racist policies that appealed to the greater part of Europe, even if most Europeans would deny it, and the overriding nature of the main characters running the show. It was the paranoid behaviour, the megalomania, and the drug induced egotism and plan criminal behavoiur of these chaps that made them more concerned about watching out for the knives in back, blaming selected minorities for all the problems that they had, instead of looking into a mirror to see the actual problem itself; Added to that the base criminal behaviour of been more interested in looting than the greater strategic picture. I no way a facist supporter. BUT I will not link every endeavor made in Germany to facist credit. From what I understand the Nazi were a minority party (23% of the total vote) that the other political parties thought they could control thru.the standard political practice once in power. There seemed to be naive opinion of these thugs that cost the world some very exspensive life lessons.

What I am repeatedly trying to do is look into the endeavors of the majority of participants that can only be accused of anything other than been patriotic Germans trying to recover their counties losses and position in the world affairs. Not every little detail of everyones actions directed to the greater good of the Nazi party, rather it rode on the coat tails of others achievements often claiming all the credit.

Unfortunately historical accounts rarely seem to be able to separate their historical arguments into their separate components.

What I am interested in here is NOT the socio-political question, but socio-economic question of what was the reasons behind the construction of there docks and was there any revalance to their dimensions linking that to future ship construction other than the H_class? Politics are of minimal concern at this point.

Linking everything to the Nazi lunatics is just a iritating distraction fogging up any in-depth study of the decision making by the average 'Joe blow' German. I am the first to admit that of course the political distraction of having to deal with these criminals had to have some effect on what was happening, but I do not believe we should focus every explanation of events solely on this one political aspect of the historical account.

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Re: War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby sineatimorar » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:52 pm

Further to the part about the female work force of war time Germany. They never systematically used or thought to use the female population in that way. It was considered that the role of been a mother ( breeding the next generation of prefect German Aryans if you want to be blunt about it) was main purpose for the ladies. They even gave out medals to the ladies for been " heroines of the fatherland" for having multiple children.

Both the USA and the USSR had more resources in populations and natural resources to devote to their endeavors.

And yes it was their greatest weakness was not to recognize the resource they had in the very minorities they persecuted during this time. It goes a lot to confirming the lunacy of their position in the first place.

Sociopaths are some of the hardest people deal with. You usually end up having to make them fear you more to get them to back off. I for one would not like to be in a position to have to deal with them or their like. It is the basis of all bully like behavior, to which none of us should tolerate for that very reason.

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Re: War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby RF » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:18 am

sineatimorar wrote:What I am interested in here is NOT the socio-political question, but socio-economic question of what was the reasons behind the construction of there docks and was there any revalance to their dimensions linking that to future ship construction other than the H_class? Politics are of minimal concern at this point.

Linking everything to the Nazi lunatics is just a iritating distraction fogging up any in-depth study of the decision making by the average 'Joe blow' German.



In dealing with any decision making in the Third Reich I dom't think you can take an apolitical view, you have to think holistically as in the eyes of a totalitarian, facts are values, nothing is value free.
How they operate and the consequences of their policies affects everything, including civil engineering projects like dry dock construction.
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Re: War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby sineatimorar » Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:09 pm

As I have both family records from this time from letters to my great great grandfather, from siblings living in various provinces in Germany addressed to him here in Australia that address this issue from within the party and thoses opposed to it, plus a personal friendship with a lower ranked SS wafen commando. The party neither controlled their every personal thoughts nor every actions done outside of direct overview from party officials. To think that the party had complete control over every action and thought is in error.

There is ample evidence-based historical record of various high ranked military and civilians who did infact by their actions subjugate party edicts when their moral codes were in conflict and act on that conflict.

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Re: War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby RF » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:48 pm

I completely agree. But whatever individuals may think they still operate within the ideological paradigm of the regime, they bend that ideology into their own agenda or actions. Many senior Waffen SS officers did this, and could get away with it provided it didn't conflict openly with the regime.

And not just the Waffen SS, even Jewish descended officers like Rogge or Lutjens could see their careers flourish under Hitler.
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Re: War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby sineatimorar » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:10 am

Now there is something of interest for a debate on Lutjen family background and how this difficulty would be factored into his behaviour. Can you here confirm his Jewish family background? For it may go towards explaining his rather odd behaviour on his last voyage if he considered discovery this fact imminent.

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Re: War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby RF » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:08 pm

I don't think his distant Jewish background or sympathies (I believe he was one eigth Jewish from his great grandparents?) needed to be covered up not least because (as Kennedy records) of his protest against the Krystallnacht pogrom. Being a Kriegsmarine officer and at sea placed him at arms length from the SS, Gestapo and other Nazi agencies.

One other instance of an officer who was a ''loose cannon'' and had a habit of going out on his own and getting away with it politically was Helmuth von Ruckteschell, who named the second hilfskreuzer under his command Michel allegedly after the name of the Archangel Michael. the protector of the Jewish nation!
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Re: War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby sineatimorar » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:02 pm

Well they were not the only ones to have crazy nuttas in their ranks. I think as early as being a lowly leutant , General Patton declared he was the reincarnation of Julius cesar and wasn't put in a padded cell. Our own General Blammey went from a caring office worried for men in Ww1 to a complete shit in WW2 who accused the men who just successfully fought the Japanese to a stand still, as been cowardlly in their behaviour. It might have been a reflection of his action at Burma when he kicked off a company of soldiers , and basically stole their ride to Australia. To a man they ended up on one of the death marches.

He was never forgiven and had to be careful entering some returned service league clubs.

Now if you look at the official histories ,except for the initial reaction to the speech, you will not find any mention of that reaction in post the war records. I only know about from countless informal interviews with our returned diggers over a three year period. The only reason I got the interviews was my connection with the New Guinea campaign thru my late grandfather's service there.

This should indicate how much we do not really know of what REALLY went on in the war and as the actual survivors of the fighting die off we probably never will get a full and frank understanding of this part of History.

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Re: War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby Herr Nilsson » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:54 am

Lütjens brother-in-law Otto Backenköhler (therefore I think Lütjens wife Margarete too) allegedly had a jewish background. Lütjens himself had not.
Lütjens 1st staff officer Paul Ascher was “Mischling” of 1st degree. He was one of only 260 out of more than 10,000 who got a certificate of exemption, which could only be signed by Hitler himself. Hitler noted that the approval had to be reviewed after the “Endsieg”.

I think it’s more likely that the Ruckteschell - who was born in Hamburg - named his ship after one of the Hamburg’s most famous landmarks the church “St. Michaelis” which is simply called “Michel”. Even in the rest of Germany this church is just known as “Hamburger Michel”.
Regards

Marc

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Re: War time drydock construction in Germany

Postby sineatimorar » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:32 pm

That last shot straight over my head, that is to say I Donot get the reference to churches. Thanks for the relationship tie up on Lutjen. I think the only problem he could have had with that is when the situation arises of when the Gestapo is 'looking' for a excuse to ' denounce' you as happened on many occasions to others.


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