Lutjens in Austin...

Anything about the crew, families, origins, etc.
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wadinga
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Re: Lutjens in Austin...

Postby wadinga » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:41 am

Hello RF and all,


Since you are interested in football lets consider how early in the Thirties Nazi evil manifested itself and how reviled the Nazi salute was even before Gunter set foot on Karlsruhe's bridge.


Before WW2 the nazi salute did not attract anything like the opproprium it does today


Here is a description of Derby County's visit

"Like the rest of Britain, football had tried to carry on as normal. Yet, as far back as 1934, footballers had been one of the first sections of British society to see for themselves what was happening in Germany.
In May that year, Derby County made a four-match visit there. When they eventually reached the German border it was to find a country swathed in swastika emblems.
After Hitler’s success in the elections of 1933, the Nazi State was firmly established. Dave Holford was a 19-year-old outside-left from Scarborough, excited to be included in the tour party, despite his lack of experience: “Everywhere we went, the swastika was flying. If you said ‘Good morning,’ they’d reply with ‘Heil Hitler’. If you went into a cafe and said ‘Good evening,’ they would respond with ‘Heil Hitler’. Even then, you could see this was a country preparing for war.”
On the pitch, Derby lost three times and drew once. Twice they conceded five goals in a match and were surprised by the standard of their hosts’ game.
All agreed, however, that if the football had been hard work, overall the tour had been an enjoyable one with good hotels and plenty of time to relax and enjoy the scenery.
There was, however, one overriding blot on the collective memory. Just as the England team would be obliged to do in Berlin, four years later, these Derby players were ordered to give the Nazi salute before each game.
Full-back George Collin, who captained the side when Tommy Cooper left for England duty, remembered their dilemma: “We told the manager, George Jobey, that we didn’t want to do it. He spoke with the directors, but they said that the British ambassador insisted we must.
“He said that the Foreign Office were afraid of causing an international incident if we refused. It would be a snub to Hitler at a time when international relations were so delicate.
“So we did as we were told. All except our goalkeeper, Jack Kirby, that is. Jack was adamant that he wouldn’t give the salute.
“When the time came, he just kept his arm down and almost turned his back on the dignitaries. If anyone noticed, they didn’t say anything.”

the insane pursuit of racist policies
As we have already established, anti-Jewish legislation was passed days after Hitler gained the Chancellorship, and a little later with the appointment of thousands of SA men as auxillary police, violence , abduction, imprisonment and murder were practised against communists, trades union members and jews and any other opposition from early 1933 onwards. Concentration camps like Dachau were set up to incarcerate without trial and the prisoners harshly treated, sometimes until death claimed them. As the young Dave Holford described the population was carried away with a near-religious fervour of support for Hitler and the Nazis, hence the plebiscite result of 1934. This massive propaganda effort was extended overseas via the Foreign Ministry and pro German organizations like the Blackshirts or the Deutsch Bund to overcome the opposition generated by Trade Unionists, Communists and jewish influence concerned over the treatment of their comrades in Germany. British, American and other governments overcame their repugnance and tried to maintain relations in the hope that Hitler would be replaced, or mellow or that he would overcome the most extreme elements, like Roehm, and develop a new reasonable policy. How ridiculous they look now, with hindsight, and yet they invited Karlsruhe and Emden on their "Goodwill Tours" although it meant honouring the representatives of the New Germany and gritting their teeth in the face of Nazi salutes and Swastikas.

How far Lutjens approved or disapproved of the regime overall is problematic as the kept his counsel
We have only two statements that we can rely on to judge Lutjen's opinion:

"Time Segment 21:40 ......We will fight until these the last shot is expended. Long live the Fuerher!

and the following day Time Segment 00:32

To the Fuerher of the German Reich, Adolf Hitler: We shall fight to the last man with confidence in you, my Fuerher, and with rock solid trust in Germany's victory!

I wondered if these items had been added to actual signals by Goebbel's propaganda people, but checking this proved interesting in another way.

Firstly they are there in the KtB so Hans Henning von Schulze Prinz Eugen's Senior Communications officer would have had to add them retrospectively, but then Goebbels himself came up with new evidence:

From his diaries translated by Fred Taylor ISBN 0-241-10893-4 p 386 29th May 1941 "Unfortunately, our report of yesterday, including the last messages from Admiral Luetjens, gave away our code key. We were rather over-hasty in that matter and now we must pay for it. A very unpleasant business, which Dr Dietrich will suffer for. We can only hope the Prinz Eugen will not come to any harm as a result. "

Dr Dietrich was in charge of releasing information for publishing in the Nazi controlled media. He had committed the unpardonable mistake of quoting the exact words Luetjens had used in his signals. Why is this so bad?

Bletchley Park the British codebreaking establishment often used the technique of Cribs, identifying perhaps a weather forecast in a more easily broken code and searching for the same thing in the top level Enigma code so as to break it. But Dietrich had blundered by printing in the Public Press the plain language version of Luetjens' fervent farewell to the Fuerher! If the British realised it, they could compare this with the gobbledegook they picked by radio and derive the coding the Enigma had applied to the original signal and read all signals sent that day. However when the settings for Einigma changed they would be back where they started.

Oddly enough, Hinsley says Bletchley did manage to start reading Bismarck's Enigma on the 28th, although he never mentions how. The material captured from the weather ship Muenchen wasn't of value until June started, the messages could be read, and the supply ships knocked off one by one.

We can't know why Lutjens put these emotional observations into his reports. Either it was very important indeed to wish the Fuerher Long Life, or Lutjens was concerned about loved ones left ashore who might be better looked after, when the news of his death and failure of the mission were reported.

http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/gpressart1.html has the report from the June issue of "Die Kriegsmarine", Deutsche Marine-Zeitung, an official journal , with the same direct Lutjens quote as must have been included in the newspapers.

And finally the football..... :whistle:

he was dropped from the team and his international career was finished.


That player was,of course, Stan Cullis and his career was not finished at all. The FA were quite happy with his moral stand. Stan Cullis played for England against France on 26/05/38 twelve days after the Germany match, and against a FIFA side 26/10/38 and against Norway on 09/11/38. Also against Northern Ireland, Scotland, Italy, Yugoslavia and Romania after that. Then the war kind of spoiled his international career.

And which club did he play for, why Wolverhampton Wanderers :cool:

For the story of a real hero, an ordinary Blohm & Voss worker, who made his stand against the Nazi salute and paid an awful price, see this link. http://www.fasena.de/courage/english/5a.htm I had never seen this photo or heard his story until I turned it up yesterday. This man should be famous.

There must be US newspaper reports of Lutjen's visit to the US, possibly quotes from his speech to the Texas legislature. Maybe someone can find them.

I've found a very interesting source....... for next time :D

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Lutjens in Austin...

Postby RF » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:22 am

wadinga wrote:Hello RF and all,

Since you are interested in football


For the record I am not a football fan and quite honestly I have disliked the sport because I had to play it at school in foul and wintry weather when I had no particular wish to. I prefer cricket. At least play there only happens in decent weather.

I used the football example because of the historical context, it is a massive sport throughout the world and in the 1930's it wasn't political.
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Re: Lutjens in Austin...

Postby RF » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:39 am

wadinga wrote:There was, however, one overriding blot on the collective memory. Just as the England team would be obliged to do in Berlin, four years later, these Derby players were ordered to give the Nazi salute before each game.
Full-back George Collin, who captained the side when Tommy Cooper left for England duty, remembered their dilemma: “We told the manager, George Jobey, that we didn’t want to do it. He spoke with the directors, but they said that the British ambassador insisted we must.
“He said that the Foreign Office were afraid of causing an international incident if we refused. It would be a snub to Hitler at a time when international relations were so delicate.
“So we did as we were told. All except our goalkeeper, Jack Kirby, that is. Jack was adamant that he wouldn’t give the salute.
“When the time came, he just kept his arm down and almost turned his back on the dignitaries. If anyone noticed, they didn’t say anything.”


Yes, it is fairly typical of the British Foreign Office, stuffed with appeassors.

Actually had the entire team decided not to give the salute and said nothing beforehand, what could the Germans or the English football authorities or the Foreign Office do about it?
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Re: Lutjens in Austin...

Postby RF » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:46 am

wadinga wrote:We can't know why Lutjens put these emotional observations into his reports. Either it was very important indeed to wish the Fuerher Long Life, or Lutjens was concerned about loved ones left ashore who might be better looked after, when the news of his death and failure of the mission were reported.


No we don't. And we are sort of going around in circles with all the detail and speculation contained in your latest post, most of which I have already commented upon.
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Re: Lutjens in Austin...

Postby wadinga » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:19 am

RF,

You must be enjoying the news from "Downunder" :cool:


Sorry you feel we are going round in circles, I thought we were making spendid progress, although
Some of the events of 1933 and 1934 you mention are not untipical of quite a few countries, even today.
is true, I think if the current President Alexander Lukashenko were to have executed his opponents, there would be even more international condemnation than there is.

Interestingly here is Britain's response to a Reichsmarine visit after the Night of the Long Knives

By way of comparison with the Texan visit, cruisers Konigsberg and Leipzig made a goodwill visit to Portsmouth, England on July 11 1934 less than two weeks after the Night of the Long Knives and before Hitler made his Reichstag speech of July 13 in which he “justified” the murders. I don’t know if with overseas' addresses you can view this http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=5100

Which is the edited commented news report of the visit, or this the unedited http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=53006

It shows the British Port Admiral visiting the ships on their historic first visit to a British port since the scuttling of the High Seas Fleet in Scapa Flow. Obviously such a trip had been planned for some time and was too politically sensitive to cancel even though the German government had just carried out a round of extra-judicial executions. No Swastika flags and naval salutes only. However Reichsmarine uniforms with Swastika in Eagle Claw badges, introduced March 24th 1934. The Reichsmarine was renamed Kriegsmarine (War Navy) on May 21, 1935 and given a new flag (the Reich War Flag) the following November. On March 12 1934 Hindenburg had announced the Swastika should be flown alongside the Imperial flag, and Topp mentions flying both flags together in the Vancouver article.

As an example of the kind of popular support the Nazi movement had in some quarters of the USA before Lutjens' visit, here is a description of a little get-together.

"On the night of Tuesday, June 5, 1934, at eight o clock, some 2,500 Nazis and their friends attended a mass meeting of the Friends of the New Germany at Turnhall, Lexington Ave. and 85th Street, New York City. Sixty Nazi Storm Troopers attired in uniforms with black breeches and Sam Brown belts, smuggled off Nazi ships were the guard of honor. Storm Troop officers had white and red arm bands with the swastika superimposed on them. Every twenty minutes the Troopers, clicking their heels in the best Nazi fashion, changed guard in front of the speakers stand. The Hitler Youth organization was present. Men and women Nazis sold the official Nazi publication, Jung Sturm, and everybody awaited the coming of one of the chief speakers of the evening who was to bring them a message from the Boston Nazis. "

And here's a description of the reception Lutjens and Karlsruhe received in San Francisco, before Vancouver:


"Almost four thousand men came from all the piers to where the ‘Karlsruhe’ was to dock. As we were standing there a large car flying the old German Republican (Weimar) flag and the Nazi Swastika drew up. Inside were several men in formal attire including silk toppers. A group of longshoremen surged forward and tore the Nazi flag off the car and threw it into the bay. The Weimar flag was not touched. Neither police nor dock guards interfered. The men sitting in the car looked angry but didn’t dare try anything.
At last the ship began manoeuvring into dock. The cadets were now at attention looking pleased at such a large gathering to receive them. Their band blared noisily. Some of their ship’s hands threw their lines onto the dock. No one moved and the lines fell into the harbour. They realized something was wrong.
Soon the fancily dressed cadets had their shiny coats off and were perspiring, going about the business of tying up their own boat.
That job completed, they marched up Market Street to City Hall. The longshoremen marched along - all of them, but especially those of German descent who knew the language, shouting appropriate comments that reviewed the legality of Hitler’s birth, the sexual aspects of the Hitler-Roehm relationship, and pertinent commentaries of a political nature with accompanying expressions of ill-will. At City Hall, while Mayor Rossi made his speech of welcome, anti-Hitler leaflets were pressed into the hands of the young Nazis - these, among other things, inquired about the whereabouts of Ernst Thaelman, the great longshore labour leader who headed the Communist Party of Germany and had been incarcerated in a Nazi dungeon. The people along the streets were handed explanatory leaflets.
Their reception was spoiled. Their ‘good will’ visit boomeranged. It became an occasion for making known to all San Francisco, some of the more blatant Nazi crimes."

Lutjens had a tough assignment.

Happy New Year to all,

wadinga
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Re: Lutjens in Austin...

Postby RF » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:26 am

wadinga wrote:RF,
You must be enjoying the news from "Downunder" :cool:

Happy New Year to all,

wadinga


I am indeed. And happy new year to you to and all other forum members.
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Re: Lutjens in Austin...

Postby RF » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:33 am

wadinga wrote:And here's a description of the reception Lutjens and Karlsruhe received in San Francisco, before Vancouver:

"Almost four thousand men came from all the piers to where the ‘Karlsruhe’ was to dock. As we were standing there a large car flying the old German Republican (Weimar) flag and the Nazi Swastika drew up. Inside were several men in formal attire including silk toppers. A group of longshoremen surged forward and tore the Nazi flag off the car and threw it into the bay. The Weimar flag was not touched. Neither police nor dock guards interfered. The men sitting in the car looked angry but didn’t dare try anything.
At last the ship began manoeuvring into dock. The cadets were now at attention looking pleased at such a large gathering to receive them. Their band blared noisily. Some of their ship’s hands threw their lines onto the dock. No one moved and the lines fell into the harbour. They realized something was wrong.
Soon the fancily dressed cadets had their shiny coats off and were perspiring, going about the business of tying up their own boat.
That job completed, they marched up Market Street to City Hall. The longshoremen marched along - all of them, but especially those of German descent who knew the language, shouting appropriate comments that reviewed the legality of Hitler’s birth, the sexual aspects of the Hitler-Roehm relationship, and pertinent commentaries of a political nature with accompanying expressions of ill-will. At City Hall, while Mayor Rossi made his speech of welcome, anti-Hitler leaflets were pressed into the hands of the young Nazis - these, among other things, inquired about the whereabouts of Ernst Thaelman, the great longshore labour leader who headed the Communist Party of Germany and had been incarcerated in a Nazi dungeon. The people along the streets were handed explanatory leaflets.
Their reception was spoiled. Their ‘good will’ visit boomeranged. It became an occasion for making known to all San Francisco, some of the more blatant Nazi crimes."

Lutjens had a tough assignment.



As a goodwill visit an impossible assignment, as it is caught up in a conflict between nazies and anti-nazies in the ports they are visiting.

None of this conflict, as I have alluded to previously, involved the Reichsmarine directly. Lutjens quite rightly stayed out of it, showing that Raeder's policy of keeping out of party politics was right.
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Re: Lutjens in Austin...

Postby Herr Nilsson » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:55 pm

wadinga wrote:Midshipman Erich Topp, aboard Karlsruhe was quite clear about the propaganda objective of the tour, quoted in the Canadian document " made us representatives and ambassadors of the new Germany"
wadinga


Topp's diary was a so called "dienstliches Tagebuch". If I understand it correctly, recruits had to keep it (at least) during their first year and it seems to me, that it was not totally private. There were orders, what they should not write.
His book consists of the diary and comments and reflections of Topp at the time he wrote the book. The quote is from the comments of the "old" Topp.

wadinga wrote:For the story of a real hero, an ordinary Blohm & Voss worker, who made his stand against the Nazi salute and paid an awful price, see this link. http://www.fasena.de/courage/english/5a.htm I had never seen this photo or heard his story until I turned it up yesterday. This man should be famous.


This man went to jail because he commited a "crime" called "Rassenschande". He had two children with his fiancé, which was Jewish. It had nothing to do with the Nazi salute. I agree with your last sentence.

I also reread Raeder’s memoirs. Raeder’s former adjutant and later chief of staff Schulte-Moenting and rear-admiral Patzig and others complained about the Kristallnacht to Raeder. Doenitz and Luetjens complained to Admiral Foerster. Foerster reported this to Raeder. Raeder complained (maybe just reported) to Hitler. Hitler told Raeder, that he didn’t authorize anything what happened. Raeder did believe it, because Hitler told Goering very much the same on another day.
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Re: Lutjens in Austin...

Postby RF » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:39 pm

Which presumably answers the query posed by wadingda about verifying the comment in Kennedys' book.
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Re: Lutjens in Austin...

Postby wadinga » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:54 pm

All,

So the evidence for Lutjen's famous protest about Krystallnacht comes down to
Raeder complained (maybe just reported) to Hitler.
A pretty vague mention in Raeder's memoirs written largely in complaint about the jail sentence he had just served (commuted from Life because he was in poor health). After he had plenty of time to come up with reasons why he, as a simple sailor, had had nothing to do with the Nazis. And neither had the men he commanded.

Interestingly, reading his answers at the Nuremberg Trial, when he faced the death sentence which claimed many other senior survivors of the Nazi regime, he makes no mention of his or anybody else's protests about Krystallnacht.http://www.nizkor.org

He details several other occassions when he threatened to resign, once when Hitler criticised the design of the Bismarck, another time when Raeder wanted to forbid Hitler's naval adjutant's forthcoming marriage because his new fiance had a bit of a "reputation". Hitler interviewed her, decided she was OK and gave the dismissed officer a role in the Nazi Motor League. Raeder's shouted argument with Hitler apparently lasted for two hours. He, like so many others, "knew nothing" of the Holocaust and only lost faith with the Fuhrer at the very end when his friend Dr Gessler was tortured in a concentration camp.

Raeder was the most senior Wehrmacht officer who lasted from before Hitler's rise to power to the beginning of the end. Blomberg and Fritsche were framed with sexual scandals but nothing went wrong for good old Raeder. Because he was unimportant, or because he was compliant and co-operative? Claims that the Kriegsmarine was overlooked and untainted by Nazi influence just don't stand up. When Hitler came to power there was no Luftwaffe, the army was only permitted pretend tanks, but the Reichsmarine had brand-new Panzerschiffe, and soon Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. When Hitler disabled the SA in the Night of the Long Knives, Von Blomberg, Fritsche and Raeder held the future of the country (and Europe)in their hands. At Hindenburg's command to them, or out of their concern for the future Hitler might have been the next with a bullet in the brain. But instead they pledged their allegiance to him! Raeder was a wily politician deeply enmeshed in Nazi power politics, wrangling for funds and influence against Goering and others, and securing a reasonable slice of the pie. So when he sent Lutjens and Karlsruhe to sea, he was sending out Ambassadors for the New Germany, National Socialist Germany, just as Topp recorded in his diary.

Speaking of salutes, can others check the Time-Life colour shots of Raeder getting his Grand Admiral's baton at Tirpitz's launch and identify the tall, austere officer giving the naval salute when everybody else gives the Party Salute? The same man who quickly switches to conform with the rest of the gang for the other shots in the sequence.

Talking of a real man of principle, August Landmesser, the Blohm & Voss worker, well, having read the article I myself referenced, I am well aware of why he was imprisoned. However locate some pictures of the launch of the Horst Wessel (now USS Eagle) named for the "martyr" of the Nazi movement, consider that Rudolf Hess composed a special dedication speech for the occasion, view the many thousands all enthusiastically giving the Nazi salute and then tell me again Landmesser's troubles didn't stem from his gesture on that day. His fiancee gave birth to their first illegal (tainted with jewish blood) child a year before his gesture, but he was imprisoned a year after he made his protest when the second child was born.

Still looking for more evidence about Lutjen's conduct on the cruise.....

All the best

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Re: Lutjens in Austin...

Postby Herr Nilsson » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:00 am

Are we talking about Raeder or Lütjens in this thread?
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Marc

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Re: Lutjens in Austin...

Postby RF » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:54 am

wadinga wrote:All,

So the evidence for Lutjen's famous protest about Krystallnacht comes down to
Raeder complained (maybe just reported) to Hitler.
A pretty vague mention in Raeder's memoirs written largely in complaint about the jail sentence he had just served (commuted from Life because he was in poor health). After he had plenty of time to come up with reasons why he, as a simple sailor, had had nothing to do with the Nazis. And neither had the men he commanded.


The Wikipaedia biography of Gunther Lutjens includes a paragraph that reads: ''In November 1938 Lutjens was one of only three flag officers who protested in writing against the anti-Jewish Kristallnacht pogroms.'' This is a vebatim quote inclusive of the spelling mistake therein.

This continuing diatribe against Lutjens and now Raeder is most tiresome and I think the time is approaching when perhaps Jose Rico as Administrator might want to lock this thread altogether.
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Re: Lutjens in Austin...

Postby Herr Nilsson » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:46 am

Well, just a few thoughts before leaving this thread:

-Raeder published his memoirs in 1956. 15 years after Lütjens death. I see no reason not to believe not to believe, what Raeder writes about Lütjens.

-In German law there is the principle “in dubio pro reo” (when in doubt, for the accused). I can't prove anything, but I have doubts.

-Most of us are living in free countries, but I don’t think anyone of us can be so arrogant to look down to the Germans of this dark age of my country. I certainly do not. I have no idea what I had done during these years of terror. With a familiy, maybe with good job, with a government promising heaven on earth. Do you?
Read the Obama’s mosque thread carefully. Read sentences like:

„First. The main problem is NOT in their own countries: this mob can live their desert and flea infected lands. The ones in the West are the main problem, as the danish and french experiences are so much telling us. As the danes are doing obstacles for their inmigration have to be implemented. Then a western cultural induction has to be forced upon those living inside the West: not that they have to reject their religion but they must accept the western, free and helenistic ways of ours. If not the door to deportation must be open. No more mosques in urban populated areas, that encourages them to come to the West, made this difficult.

Second. You fight the war you can win, not the one you can't. Low intensity conflicts, proxy wars, "pacification" wars are not those the west can win. So the conflict MUST escalate to that you can win: high intensity, high tech wars.
Caesar "pacified" both, Spain and Gaul with no more than three legions, however his actions were ruthless. That is why he is now in History a mighty figure whilst Robert McNamara will be forgotten or at least remembered as a loser. The Khan with 100,000 riders did conquered millions! It's a matter of will, strenght and stomach. It's them or us.“


Did you know the Nazi’s first preferred deportation of the Jews? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

Yes it’s easy to condemn Raeder, Lütjens and anyone else with our knowledge of today. But the seeds of hate are right here, today, even in this forum. That really scares me and except boredatwork no one has drawn any conclusions from that.
Regards

Marc

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Re: Lutjens in Austin...

Postby José M. Rico » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:04 pm

Yes, I think it is time for this thread to be locked.

Just a short reminder in case someone forgot.
In 1969, the Bundesmarine commissioned a destroyer named after Admiral Günther Lütjens, that together with her sister ships Mölders and Rommel proudly hoisted the flag of a free Germany all over the world for over 30 years.

lutjens07.jpg
lutjens07.jpg (44.18 KiB) Viewed 3933 times

A few days after the terrorist attacks of September 11th, the German destroyer Lutjens (D-185) passed close alongside USS Winston S. Churchill while operating in European waters. As she rendered honors, her crew manned the rail and displayed a hand-lettered sign reading "We Stand By You", and she flew both the US and German flags at half-mast. In a remarkable coincidence, the two ships were both built at Bath Iron Works, about 30 years apart.

http://www.d-185.com/westandbyyou.htm


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