Jutland recurrent themes

From the birth of the Dreadnought to the period immediately after the end of World War I.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:12 pm

Those are a lot of "ifs". Too many perhaps.

iankw
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Postby iankw » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:43 pm

I'm glad you agree Karl. But tell me any that didn't apply at the time. What about my questions, care to suggest an answer?

regards

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Postby Djoser » Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:05 pm

I'm using the number of large calibre hits absorbed by the German battlecruisers as my sole criteria as to my judgement on their toughness.

Hell, if the Germans hadn't had such low freeboard forward on the Lutzow, or she hadn't been hit so much forward but rather more evenly, she could have survived, and made the British look even worse by comparison. Those are some big 'ifs', though.

But you do raise some good points, Iankw...

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Karl Heidenreich
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:48 pm

iankw:
Mr. Djoser said it all on the previous reply. :wink:
I´ll not answer more because I feel you´re getting too personal on this and over Bismarck being scuttled and not sunk by the RN. :negative:
But in the end Beatty had the answer: "Something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Postby tone » Sat May 12, 2007 1:01 am

Sorry to pipe in so late.

If I had my druthers...

1. Give me the German BCs for their armor and overall design strengths
2. Give me the RN's directors and fire control system, except...
3. Give me a MIXTURE of RN and German rangefinders
4. Give me the German's vantage point with its superior visibility
5. Give me the fresh and ready condition of the German crews under drill
6. Give me the German shells for their closer attainment of their nominal capabilities

tone

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Postby paul mercer » Wed May 16, 2007 12:33 pm

The way I read Jutland was that Beatty went charging in against the German Battleships with his Battlecruisers and got a hiding. He was saved by the 5th Battle Squadron with its QE class ships which handed out quite a lot of punishment to the Germans and had their shooting been a lot better could well have sunk alot more of them.

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Karl Heidenreich
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Wed May 16, 2007 3:12 pm

I have never got this quite clear:
After Hipper´s BCs won the battlecruiser action the 5th Squadron appeared and it was Hipper´s time to run. So, when running away and being hunted by Evan-Thomas and Beatty was the moment the British hit the HSF.
How did Scheer managed, so, to let his "T" crossed by Jellicoe and how this guy appeared?

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Postby Bgile » Wed May 16, 2007 5:28 pm

It's been a while since I've read much about Jutland, but as I understand it, Scheer wasn't aware the Grand Fleet was out until they were already in position across his "T".

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Karl Heidenreich
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Thu May 17, 2007 4:44 pm

I found this: quite clear

http://www.battle-of-jutland.com/jutland-main-fleet.htm

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An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Karl Heidenreich
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Thu May 17, 2007 7:21 pm

Hey, a WWI time video. They claim is from Jutland Battle but ir shows a ship with triple turrets which makes me suspicious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi30yV-lrj8

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An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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RF
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Postby RF » Fri May 18, 2007 9:41 am

Karl,

This video is titled ''Battle of Jutland and other WW1 actions''.

Much of this video looks to me like a re-enactment rather than the actual battle - it is a real ''scissors and paste'' job.

The triple-turreted ship seen capsizing is the Austro-Hungarian battleship St. Stephen, famously sunk in the Adriatic at the end of WW1 by an Italian motor torpedo boat, a piece of film used many times by the film industry to depict sinking warships - rather like the Barham's magazines exploding, or the sinking of the Orama by the Hipper during Operation Juno being used to depict a sinking merchant ship.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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19kilo10
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Re: Jutland recurrent themes

Postby 19kilo10 » Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:30 pm

It seems to me that German BCs were more akin to later Fast Battleships than the British concept of the big cruiser. As for Jutland......I guess one could say that....in the end....Jellico simply ran out of daylight.......

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Re: Jutland recurrent themes

Postby Karl Heidenreich » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:47 am

Jellicoe didn´t want to risk it anyway. When Scheer did his last (and quite mysterious) attack and turn around Jellicoe had two choices: pursuit and exploit his tactical advantage or play it safe. He choose to play it safe and a debate was born.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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RF
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Re: Jutland recurrent themes

Postby RF » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:30 am

Jellicoe had to play it safe, it was the only sensible strategic option.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: Jutland recurrent themes

Postby iankw » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:42 pm

He had also told the Admiralty beforehand that he would always turn away rather than risk torpedoes/mines.

regards

Ian


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