The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
- paulcadogan
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The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
What an event that was - on such a scale...!
Some good photos, plus a great plan view of the fleet formation... it must have been a stunning sight!
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30128199
Some good photos, plus a great plan view of the fleet formation... it must have been a stunning sight!
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30128199
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
Re: The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
Excellent reporting Paul and great pictures too-for which many thanks-the whole sad business was triggered by the sheer tardiness of the peace talks.The British had already circulated orders aimed at minimising the effects of scuttling, but knew in their heart of hearts that they could do little about it. If peace talks did not succeed before the Armistice ended a state of war would once again break out. If this happened, Rear Admiral von Reuter had decided that he would sink his entire Fleet rather than let the British have the ships.
Unfortunately for von Reuter, the only information that he could get about the peace talks was from the British, or what he could read in four-day-old copies of The Times. This lack of up to date information had a bizarre consequence. Von Reuter must have realised that his fleet would never return to Germany, and therefore he would almost certainly have scuttled it, if only to preserve the honour of the German Navy. However his actual decision to scuttle was based on a misleading report in a copy of The Times, which was four days old when he read it.
At Versailles the peace talks were in chaos, and as the end of the Armistice drew near, a final agreement still had not been reached. Eventually the British, tired of the whole mess, gave the German Government an ultimatum either to accept the peace terms by noon on 21 June or face renewed hostilities. That is what von Reuter read in his copy of The Times four days later and that is the information that he acted on. What he did not know is that later on the same day the Germans capitulated, accepted the terms, and the Armistice was extended until 23 June to tie up the loose ends.
Unfortunately for von Reuter, the only information that he could get about the peace talks was from the British, or what he could read in four-day-old copies of The Times. This lack of up to date information had a bizarre consequence. Von Reuter must have realised that his fleet would never return to Germany, and therefore he would almost certainly have scuttled it, if only to preserve the honour of the German Navy. However his actual decision to scuttle was based on a misleading report in a copy of The Times, which was four days old when he read it.
At Versailles the peace talks were in chaos, and as the end of the Armistice drew near, a final agreement still had not been reached. Eventually the British, tired of the whole mess, gave the German Government an ultimatum either to accept the peace terms by noon on 21 June or face renewed hostilities. That is what von Reuter read in his copy of The Times four days later and that is the information that he acted on. What he did not know is that later on the same day the Germans capitulated, accepted the terms, and the Armistice was extended until 23 June to tie up the loose ends.
Quo Fata Vocant-Whither the Fates call
Jim
Jim
- paulcadogan
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Re: The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
Interesting! So you're saying that were it not for the stale-dated news report the scuttling might not have occurred?
What do you suppose might have happened if the HSF hadn't been scuttled?
What do you suppose might have happened if the HSF hadn't been scuttled?
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
Re: The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
A What If Question Eh!!-GB did not want them; but some of the Allied nations may have had some use for some units- but again that is very much a MAY!! The Great War's end brought near bankruptcy to most of the European Allies -so unless other nations- say in South America did not want to by a warship at bargain basement price-They would have been scrapped just as the Grand Fleet was scrapped.
Quo Fata Vocant-Whither the Fates call
Jim
Jim
- paulcadogan
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Re: The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
Of course...with some being used as battle practice targets as was the case with those whose scuttling was prevented.
Still it's an intriguing thought - a modernized Derfflinger and Hindenburg in WW2!
Still it's an intriguing thought - a modernized Derfflinger and Hindenburg in WW2!
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man
Re: The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
Ah!! the Derfflinger-she should have been totally examined ,piece by piece to establish
how best to build battlecruisers; and to improve those British battlecruisers that lived on after the holocaust of scrapping; but that I have no doubt- was too much to expect
how best to build battlecruisers; and to improve those British battlecruisers that lived on after the holocaust of scrapping; but that I have no doubt- was too much to expect
Quo Fata Vocant-Whither the Fates call
Jim
Jim
Re: The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
Yes Paul, for once the BBC has made an interesting article without stuffing it with political correctness.paulcadogan wrote: Some good photos, plus a great plan view of the fleet formation... it must have been a stunning sight!
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
Re: The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
Bismarck?paulcadogan wrote:
Still it's an intriguing thought - a modernized Derfflinger and Hindenburg in WW2!
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
Re: The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
Presumably the fleet would have been parcelled out to the victorious Allies......paulcadogan wrote:
What do you suppose might have happened if the HSF hadn't been scuttled?
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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Re: The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
Gentlemen,
Just watched a documentary on the scuttling of the German fleet at Scapa Flow, it stated that that after WW1 the US, France Italy and of course the UK all wanted a share of the ships particularly the British who actually wanted the lot!
As it happened the agreement was for the ships to be shared out among the allies, but bearing in mind that even though the UK already had the largest fleet in the world many were getting a bit old and the UK did not want other nations getting relatively modern ships that might one day challenge them.
In the documentary it was stated that the authors of the program were incredulous that the bulk of the RN fleet put to sea on the day that the agreement of the sharing out of the German fleet was announced and it makes me wonder if there might possibly been some 'agreement' made between the Germans and the British that if the RN could not have them then no-one else would either?
Just watched a documentary on the scuttling of the German fleet at Scapa Flow, it stated that that after WW1 the US, France Italy and of course the UK all wanted a share of the ships particularly the British who actually wanted the lot!
As it happened the agreement was for the ships to be shared out among the allies, but bearing in mind that even though the UK already had the largest fleet in the world many were getting a bit old and the UK did not want other nations getting relatively modern ships that might one day challenge them.
In the documentary it was stated that the authors of the program were incredulous that the bulk of the RN fleet put to sea on the day that the agreement of the sharing out of the German fleet was announced and it makes me wonder if there might possibly been some 'agreement' made between the Germans and the British that if the RN could not have them then no-one else would either?
- marcelo_malara
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Re: The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
Agreement I would say no, turn a blind eye may be.paul.mercer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 9:43 am Gentlemen,
Just watched a documentary on the scuttling of the German fleet at Scapa Flow, it stated that that after WW1 the US, France Italy and of course the UK all wanted a share of the ships particularly the British who actually wanted the lot!
As it happened the agreement was for the ships to be shared out among the allies, but bearing in mind that even though the UK already had the largest fleet in the world many were getting a bit old and the UK did not want other nations getting relatively modern ships that might one day challenge them.
In the documentary it was stated that the authors of the program were incredulous that the bulk of the RN fleet put to sea on the day that the agreement of the sharing out of the German fleet was announced and it makes me wonder if there might possibly been some 'agreement' made between the Germans and the British that if the RN could not have them then no-one else would either?
Regards
Re: The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
Or perhaps most likely the assumption that the Germans wouldn't do anything - the indiscipline and lack of pride in their uniforms of the naval crews following the Kiel naval mutinies gave the impression that the German fleet was no longer a capable military force, not even in sinking their own ships.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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Re: The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
Interestingly, I watched the program again, and when it came to what to do with the German ships it actually said that both France and Italy wanted a quarter share, but the US did not want the UK to have any at all because they were capable of building enough new ships to enable them to have an Atlantic and a Pacific fleet without adding any of the German ones, so perhaps the US Navy also had its eyes on getting the whole lot.
Whatever the reasoning, the scuttling of the German ships got the UK out of a lot of rather 'sticky' bargaining situations, which is why I wondered if they did either know about what would happen and decided to go on 'Fleet exercises', or as Marcelo said, 'Just turned a blind eye' to it.
Shades of Nelsons 'blind eye' over 100 years before!
Whatever the reasoning, the scuttling of the German ships got the UK out of a lot of rather 'sticky' bargaining situations, which is why I wondered if they did either know about what would happen and decided to go on 'Fleet exercises', or as Marcelo said, 'Just turned a blind eye' to it.
Shades of Nelsons 'blind eye' over 100 years before!
Re: The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
If the RN or the British Government simply ''wanted rid of the ships'' it would have been far more lucrative to have them broken up in shipyards and the scrap steel sold off - countless thousands of tons of it!
Or - simply sell them off to the highest bidder, or at least the highest acceptable bidder.....
I don't think the British did ''want rid of the ships'' - the British have the ships and on the basis that possession is ''nine-tenths of the law'' why not keep the whole lot? Its a lot cheaper than building new ships.
Or - simply sell them off to the highest bidder, or at least the highest acceptable bidder.....
I don't think the British did ''want rid of the ships'' - the British have the ships and on the basis that possession is ''nine-tenths of the law'' why not keep the whole lot? Its a lot cheaper than building new ships.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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Re: The surrender of the High Seas Fleet remembered
Double post; see following.
B
B
Last edited by Byron Angel on Mon Jul 24, 2023 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.