The REAL first 'all big gun' battleship

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frankwl
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Re: The REAL first 'all big gun' battleship

Post by frankwl »

Djoser wrote:Obviously the idea didn't take hold, and the Dreadnought was an entirely different level of warship.

But I have always wondered no one ever seems to bring up the six 11" guns of the Brandenburg class, when discussing the origin of the idea that the Dreadnought embodied so much more effectively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Brand ... ey%27s.png
I've read that the Japanse nearly stole a march on the Dreadnought witt the Satsuma, the biggest warship in the world at the time, and one designed to be an
"all big gun" battleship. But lack of industrial potential lead to the Satsuma being completed with a mixed battery. Mind you, there's nothing remarkable about the Royal Navy with its working relationship with the arms manufacturers of the day coming up with the first modern battleship.
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Re: The REAL first 'all big gun' battleship

Post by Djoser »

Was just reading 'The Design and Construction of the Battleship Dreadnought' by DK Brown in Warship Vol 4, and at the end, he mentions that after the trias of the 1881 battleship Inflexible, there was a proposal to build a 4 twin 16 inch gunned turret version of the Inflexible--sort of a combination of the Inflexible and the Devastation. There is a nice line drawing of the proposed ship. But it would have been 16,000 tons so the idea was dropped. Imagine the possibilities if they had built it, though. Granted it might have been a dead end for the reasons given above, but still--speculation concerning alternate history can be quite interesting.
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tommy303
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Re: The REAL first 'all big gun' battleship

Post by tommy303 »

It would likely have been seriously over gunned for its displacement and quite slow, keeping in mind the limits of machinery of the day.

Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.
Djoser
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Re: The REAL first 'all big gun' battleship

Post by Djoser »

No doubt. But one wonders if the problem might have spurred advances in technological capability (though it's hard to imagine much faster growth than transpired during this amazing period in history).

Certainly one doesn't have to look too far for other examples of unwieldy, unstable, flawed & clumsy ships, which nonetheless provoked countermeasures from other navies..
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Re: The REAL first 'all big gun' battleship

Post by OpanaPointer »

RF wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:31 pm Still not a really powerful weight of shot - its easy to see why Dreadnought would simply get the ''bragging rights'' over this design.
The orders to launch her within one year from keeling lying supports that. She was launched before Michigan.
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Re: The REAL first 'all big gun' battleship

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Djoser wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:11 am Was just reading 'The Design and Construction of the Battleship Dreadnought' by DK Brown in Warship Vol 4, and at the end, he mentions that after the trias of the 1881 battleship Inflexible, there was a proposal to build a 4 twin 16 inch gunned turret version of the Inflexible--sort of a combination of the Inflexible and the Devastation. There is a nice line drawing of the proposed ship. But it would have been 16,000 tons so the idea was dropped. Imagine the possibilities if they had built it, though. Granted it might have been a dead end for the reasons given above, but still--speculation concerning alternate history can be quite interesting.
Gentlemen,
Just looking back at some old posts, like the one above.
I cannot imagine a ship mounting 4 twin 16" guns in a ship weighing only 16000 tons, the weight of the guns and turrets alone would account for almost half the weight of the ship, let alone allowing for armour, machinery and everything else that would be needed. Also I would have thought that an 8 x 16" gun broadside on what would be a lightweight hull would shake it to bits!
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Re: The REAL first 'all big gun' battleship

Post by paul.mercer »

Djoser wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:11 am Was just reading 'The Design and Construction of the Battleship Dreadnought' by DK Brown in Warship Vol 4, and at the end, he mentions that after the trias of the 1881 battleship Inflexible, there was a proposal to build a 4 twin 16 inch gunned turret version of the Inflexible--sort of a combination of the Inflexible and the Devastation. There is a nice line drawing of the proposed ship. But it would have been 16,000 tons so the idea was dropped. Imagine the possibilities if they had built it, though. Granted it might have been a dead end for the reasons given above, but still--speculation concerning alternate history can be quite interesting.
Gentlemen,
Just looking back at some old posts, like the one above.
I cannot imagine a ship mounting 4 twin 16" guns in a ship weighing only 16000 tons, the weight of the guns and turrets alone would account for almost half the weight of the ship, let alone allowing for armour, machinery and everything else that would be needed. Also I would have thought that an 8 x 16" gun broadside on what would be a lightweight hull would shake it to bits!
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Re: The REAL first 'all big gun' battleship

Post by OpanaPointer »

My favorite Jackie Fischer quote:

"The Exchequer wanted four battleships. I wanted six. We compromised at eight."
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marcelo_malara
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Re: The REAL first 'all big gun' battleship

Post by marcelo_malara »

paul.mercer wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:41 am
Djoser wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:11 am Was just reading 'The Design and Construction of the Battleship Dreadnought' by DK Brown in Warship Vol 4, and at the end, he mentions that after the trias of the 1881 battleship Inflexible, there was a proposal to build a 4 twin 16 inch gunned turret version of the Inflexible--sort of a combination of the Inflexible and the Devastation. There is a nice line drawing of the proposed ship. But it would have been 16,000 tons so the idea was dropped. Imagine the possibilities if they had built it, though. Granted it might have been a dead end for the reasons given above, but still--speculation concerning alternate history can be quite interesting.
Gentlemen,
Just looking back at some old posts, like the one above.
I cannot imagine a ship mounting 4 twin 16" guns in a ship weighing only 16000 tons, the weight of the guns and turrets alone would account for almost half the weight of the ship, let alone allowing for armour, machinery and everything else that would be needed. Also I would have thought that an 8 x 16" gun broadside on what would be a lightweight hull would shake it to bits!
Hi Paul. It depends on the turret weight, you are assuming a fully armoured WWII style turret, and that may not be the case.
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