Hell Hath A Jury

Naval discussions covering the latter half of the 20th Century.
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RF
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Re: Hell Hath A Jury

Post by RF » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:19 am

Bgile,

Yet again you have misinterpreted my posts, jumped to conclusions and made two plus two equal five.

It should be quite clear from my previous posts that I am not taking the North Korean position.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

Bgile
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Re: Hell Hath A Jury

Post by Bgile » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:47 pm

RF wrote:Bgile,

Yet again you have misinterpreted my posts, jumped to conclusions and made two plus two equal five.

It should be quite clear from my previous posts that I am not taking the North Korean position.
If so, it was very easy to do. You explained that international borders were a concept from the Middle Ages and everyone knew that. I took that to mean that you didn't think anyone should take them seriously.

Then you said:

"This is the point; I would not be willing to so break international law, and I don't think that the mission of the Pueblo was justified."

Implying Pueblo was the ship breaking international law.

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you said, but I worked in naval intelligence and a year later that might have been me. I'm somewhat sensitive. We continue to collect intelligence about potential enemies, and sometimes it's dangerous to do so. It has the potential to save a lot of lives down the road. Obviously if we knew they were going to act outside the limits of international norms, Pueblo wouldn't have been sent there.

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RF
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Re: Hell Hath A Jury

Post by RF » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:42 pm

Bgile,

There is obviously a problem of English comprehension between us.

This is presumably because I write and speak what is known as '' Queens English''' and you are American, a country which has its own separate interpretation of the English language.

Firstly, with regards to international borders, I was referring to international waters and the boundaries of territorial limits, my comment was value free and not prescriptive. I do believe however that the boundaries should be respected as far as possible, as I would expect others to respect my boundaries. But of course these boundaries have to be reasonable - and herein lies the problem.

Secondly, the sentence you quote concerning breaking international law, and then the Pueblo, contains a comma after the word ''Law''. This piece of punctuation separates the first statement from the front of the sentance from the second at the termination of that sentance. You have read the sentance as if the comma wasn't there. I therefore said that I would not be willing to break international law. I then said that I thought the mission of the Pueblo in my view wasn't justified. Two separate and unconnected statements within one sentance.

For the record, I felt the mission of the Pueblo wasn't justified because the communist bloc might see it as a provocation and could provoke illegal action on their part (which it did), posed risks to the crew because of that, and in all probability the intelligence gained would not be all that great. Not telling the crew they were going on dangerous duty (without spelling out what it was) and giving them the means not to be included in my view was wrong.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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RF
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Re: Hell Hath A Jury

Post by RF » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:51 pm

Bgile wrote:
I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you said, but I worked in naval intelligence and a year later that might have been me. I'm somewhat sensitive. We continue to collect intelligence about potential enemies, and sometimes it's dangerous to do so. It has the potential to save a lot of lives down the road. Obviously if we knew they were going to act outside the limits of international norms, Pueblo wouldn't have been sent there.
I agree that intelligence gathering can be ''dirty work'' and that it is absolutely necessary to keep tabs on all potential enemies and hostile factions. Indeed it was the British failure to do this properly with Argentina in 1981/2 that led to the Falklands War.

As I have intimated already I think that people involved in this work should be properly looked after by their authorities and not dropped into situations where they are without internationally accepted protection without warning that ''they are on dangerous duty and if you are caught there is no Geneva Convention, you are on your own.''
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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aurora
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Re: Hell Hath A Jury

Post by aurora » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:37 pm

Does the Pueblo remain on display in North Korea, where it was moved from the Taedong River in Pyongyang to a new war museum. It continued to serve as part of the North Korean narrative of a country under siege from an oppressive foreign power???? :?
Quo Fata Vocant-Whither the Fates call

Jim

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