Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Naval discussions covering the latter half of the 20th Century.
Bgile
Senior Member
Posts: 3658
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:33 pm
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by Bgile » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:52 pm

marcelo_malara wrote:I think the fuses problem was already known, a pilot should realize that his bombs didn´t explode. Anyway, in any war there are unexploded bombs, torpedoes, shells,etc....
My impression was always that there was no fuse problem. Aircraft bomb fuses are designed to arm a number of seconds after release by the aircraft, so the bomb doesn't destroy the aircraft when it goes off. Normal bombs dropped by jet aircraft have to be dropped above a certain altitude so the fuses have time to arm. I had always thought the only problem with Argentine fuses was that the bombs were dropped too low to give the fuses time to arm. Is this incorrect?

The purpose of retarded bombs such as "Snake eye" is to deploy drag inducing plates which slow down the bomb, which in turn allows low altitude drops and still time for the fuse to arm and not destroy the attacking aircraft.

User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by marcelo_malara » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:02 pm

I am not an expert in this. I think that part of the problem was that, the low altitude. But then that wouldn´t explain why some bombs DID explode. I believe the fuses were retimed for shorter action during the war. but there were malfunctions too.

reydelcastillo
Member
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by reydelcastillo » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:08 am

http://www.combatreform.org/argentineskyhawkattack.jpg

Photo taken form a British Ship under atack by A 4 - Flying Low very low -

Bgile
Senior Member
Posts: 3658
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:33 pm
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by Bgile » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:58 am

reydelcastillo wrote:http://www.combatreform.org/argentineskyhawkattack.jpg

Photo taken form a British Ship under atack by A 4 - Flying Low very low -
Yes, I can see at least two. However, it doesn't really prove anything one way or another.

I suspect the Argentine pilots learned they had to "pop up" before releasing their conventional bombs, and when they did that the fuses had time to arm. However, I don't know that ... it's just an educated guess from talking to my brother in law who flew A-4s for the USMC.

User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by marcelo_malara » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:47 pm

The airplanes are coming a little low....thanks for the link Enrique.

Kind regards

User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by marcelo_malara » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:41 pm

This what I was told about the photo:

"The picture was taken the day 5/25/1982 from the HMS Broadsword. In the plane of the right the Lieutenant Rinke and to the left Captain Marcos P. Carballo. Here a small summary:

Are attacked and damaged, to the north of the island Borbón, the frigate F-21 Broadsword of 4.000 ton and the destroyer D-42 Coventry of 4.100 ton (sunk).

At 15:20 hs, the section "Vulcano" (Carballo - Rinke), attacked the frigate 22 HMS Broadsword that repelled the attack with missiles, shells and cannons. The Argentinians managed to throw theirs 1.000 pounds bombs without appreciating the results.

The section "Zeus" verified that of the poop of the HMS Broadsword an intense black smoke was going out. In accordance with English reports, the system of direction and propulsion was damaged. Captain Carballo returned with right fuel tank perforated by a splinter.

Carballo reports that in this attack he was surprised to see to his wing man (Rinke) flying lower than he, when he was thinking that the flight was already very low."

Regards

reydelcastillo
Member
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by reydelcastillo » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:19 pm

Gun Camera - it's posted as Mirage , I think it's a Dagger - San Carlos Bay -

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/Dragonfly/2246/

reydelcastillo
Member
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by reydelcastillo » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:20 pm

Regards Enrique

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7533
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by RF » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:55 am

marcelo_malara wrote:The airplanes are coming a little low....thanks for the link Enrique.

Kind regards
This is very low - almost like torpedo bombers. But if they have to rise to arm and release the bombs, then that is obviously the point of vulnerability to fire even though they presumably would still have time to release the bombs....
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

Bgile
Senior Member
Posts: 3658
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:33 pm
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by Bgile » Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:44 pm

Not really increased vulnerability because their path is a curve and they can be hard to hit that way. Before, they were generating little movement to the sides. They would probably be pulling hard on the stick to go up, then rolling inverted and pulling hard again to point slightly downward, then rolling back and targeting, release bomb and take random action on the way out. It's interesting they still have drop tanks ... lots of drag. I would think if empty you drop them, and if not empty ... a hazard. I don't see any bombs, but maybe too small to see. A puzzle.

User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by marcelo_malara » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:17 pm

Bgile, I will ask for the auxiliary tanks.

Enrique, the splashes in front of the Mirage/Dagger, to which weapon do you presume they belong? The same for the big splash in the A-4 photo?

Regards

User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by marcelo_malara » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:44 pm

There was not enough tanks so that every aicraft in every sortie could drop them.

Regards

reydelcastillo
Member
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by reydelcastillo » Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:28 am

marcelo_malara wrote:Bgile, I will ask for the auxiliary tanks.

Enrique, the splashes in front of the Mirage/Dagger, to which weapon do you presume they belong? The same for the big splash in the A-4 photo?

Regards
On the photo the Pilot reported that his guns had jammed after first shot , so splashes are British firing at them -
On the Gun Camera I would say also British shooting at the airplane except for the missil fired from the airplane seen on the left side -

I would like to request permision and invite to the forum several people I know -
Mr Ken ( from HMS Caridiff ) - Mr Cris BV ( Historian from Peru ) , Mr Jualbo ( Historian from Spain ) and the following Historian and people that have study the issue with the non exploded ordinances and that also have study each mission against ships - From Argentina Mr Mercantiland , Mr Pantanglen and Mr Cosmicomet -

Maybe one or two may need some assistance with english language but I'm sure we can all help and we will be able to learn a lot from what they have study for years -

Thank You -

User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by marcelo_malara » Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:08 am

Enrique, I think there is no problem with that, tell those people to join the forum, I am sure Jose (its owner) will be glad.

Regards

reydelcastillo
Member
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: Aircraft´s anti ship tactics post 1945

Post by reydelcastillo » Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:22 am

Thank you Marcelo , I have invited them - We will have to wait for them to suscribe , Ken is in London , Jualbo in Spain so they will probably do so tomorrow , Cosmicomet may be in Taiwan today ( He is Pilot on 747 ) - Cris Bv from Peru and the ones from Argentina will soon come -

Thank you again -

Post Reply