Bundesmarine ship names

Naval discussions covering the latter half of the 20th Century.
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RF
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Bundesmarine ship names

Postby RF » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:02 pm

Does anyone know whether the Bundesmarine has ever made any statement over the naming of German warships post WW2?

The reason for my asking is that most of its predecessor names have not been used, apart from Schleswig-Holstein, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and I was wndering if this was deliberate policy.
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:05 pm

They named a destroyer or such as "Lutjens". Why? I don´t know. In that case I´ll have her baptised as "Lindemann" or "Schneider".
As for a ship called Bismarck or Tirpitz I don´t believe they´ll do that. First because to have such a name it will have to be an impressive vessel that the democratic and free country of nowadays Germany will not finance.
Second, many people will become nervous: Imagine a Von der Tann or a Seydlitz or a Derfflinger sailing in battle formation around Skaggerak... :negative:
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marcelo_malara
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Postby marcelo_malara » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:57 pm

I hope none would be named Blucher, as it would be very difficult to find crew for her.

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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:19 pm

Marcelo:

I hope none would be named Blucher, as it would be very difficult to find crew for her.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Postby RF » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:16 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:Second, many people will become nervous: Imagine a Von der Tann or a Seydlitz or a Derfflinger sailing in battle formation around Skaggerak... :negative:


These are WW1 names, not very well known today and not in any way associated with the Third Reich as the names weren't used for commissioned ships. Iwouldn't have thought such names would be controversial today.

I believe that Seeadler has been used however, no doubt because of Luckners' record.
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Postby RF » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:21 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:They named a destroyer or such as "Lutjens". Why? I don´t know. In that case I´ll have her baptised as "Lindemann" or "Schneider".


The Bundesmarine named three destroyers after WW2 ''heroes'' not noted for supporting nazi-ism: Lutjens (Kriegsmarine), Moelders (Luftwaffe ace) and Rommel.

But no formal naming policy that I am aware of.

I don't know whether the Kriegsmarine practice of naming its destroyers after WW1 minor heroes/commanders of small ships had any bearing on that.
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Postby RF » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:26 am

marcelo_malara wrote:I hope none would be named Blucher, as it would be very difficult to find crew for her.


Not all people are superstitous.

When the railway steam engine that went into the Tay in the 1879 Tay Bridge disaster was recovered there was actually a queue of drivers/firemen volunteering to take her back over the re-built bridge; the engine went over the bridge many times without the slightest problem.

Bluchers' loss in WW1 was as honourable as the defeat of Spee, in WW2 was sunk by torpedoes - no reason to be a jinxed name I would have thought.
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Postby Ulrich Rudofsky » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:35 pm

The first German navy ship to visit the UK was the training ship GRAF SPEE(1959-1967)!!!! She was the HMS Flamingo in her earlier life in the RN. http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/6226/flam.jpg
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:35 pm

RF:
Karl Heidenreich wrote:
Second, many people will become nervous: Imagine a Von der Tann or a Seydlitz or a Derfflinger sailing in battle formation around Skaggerak... :negative:


These are WW1 names, not very well known today and not in any way associated with the Third Reich as the names weren't used for commissioned ships. Iwouldn't have thought such names would be controversial today.


In today´s political correct world names must be carefully selected. A Von der Tann could be viewed as an attemp to resurrect an imperial policy.

About a ship named Graf Spee there is a particular reason to be accepted by everyone: the WWI Admiral Spee was defeated by the British, so there is nothing to fear about; the WWII vessel Graf Spee was also defeated (self destruct as a matter of fact), so there is neither there a reason to protest.

About names like Rommel or the such these are personalities that certain authors and popular culture had envisioned as idealists that as they fought for their country with honor were trying to kill Mr. Hitler, a very romantic notion that is most welcome by everybody, even in Hollywood.
But, do we know for certain Lutjens was such an anti-nazi as said?
:think:
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Postby RF » Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:25 pm

Karl Heidenreich wrote:[

But, do we know for certain Lutjens was such an anti-nazi as said?
:think:


Some have suggested Lutjens, like Rogge of Atlantis, was of part Jewish descent.

According to Ludovic Kennedy in his book Lutjens made his condemnation of the Riech Krystallnacht clear to Raeder; didn't give Hitler the nazi salute; wore an admiral's dirk of the Imperial design and not one with a swastika.

Enough clues there I think.
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:35 pm

RF:
wore an admiral's dirk of the Imperial design and not one with a swastika.


So what? A lot of Army Generals wore WWI uniforms during WWII. The most famous was von Rundstedt. OK, he wasn´t a nazi, and personaly despised Hitler, but was an obedient servant of the Reich until captured by Patton´s troops. Maybe Lutjens was not a nazi enthusiast but that doesn´t put him along von Staufenberg or Beck.
What isn´t in doubt was that Lutjens was a defeatist that was never to be put in front of Rheinubung or any other important operation.
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Postby George Roumbos » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:40 am

Hi all,
going back to Bundesmarine ship names, the "Lutjens" class is decommisioned and actually are in the process of being scrapped, all three of them (Lutjens, Moelders & Rommel).
From now on, all Bundesmarine ships will be named after locations (cities & Bundeslaender) instead of names.
Rgds,
George
"Ich lasse mir doch mein Schiff nicht unter dem Arsch wegschiessen. Feuererlaubnis !"

George "tango-echo" Roumbos, Hellas

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Postby RF » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:09 pm

George Roumbos wrote:Hi all,
going back to Bundesmarine ship names, the "Lutjens" class is decommisioned and actually are in the process of being scrapped, all three of them (Lutjens, Moelders & Rommel).
From now on, all Bundesmarine ships will be named after locations (cities & Bundeslaender) instead of names.
Rgds,
George


I suppose post German re-unification this is the least controversial policy,
even though there would still be some names that would be avoided, such as Altmark for example.

Incidently it is interesting that the frigate Schleswig-Holstien does bear the same name of the ship that actually fired the very first shots of WW2 in Europe.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Postby Ulrich Rudofsky » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:18 pm

As far as I know is the MÖLDERS a museum ship in Wilhelmshaven, and the ship's veterans have scheduled an annual cleaning and painting party for May 2007......... :clap: :clap: :clap:
http://www.zerstoerer-moelders.de/
http://www.marinemuseum.de/
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:55 pm

RF:

I suppose post German re-unification this is the least controversial policy,
even though there would still be some names that would be avoided, such as Altmark for example.


I disagree with this remark, RF. Nowadays the "political correct movement" is stronger than it may have been in the 80ies or begining the 90ies. If something sounds more or less agressive or "fascist" (or at least is perceived this way) by "pacifists" or "social democrats" or the such then you are in problems, lad. You´re gonna be inmediately called a nazi or such.
Location names doesn´t post that problem, a place is a place... well, I believe that a Nuremberg could arise some problems, but names of soldiers are a different matter. Which is just plain ignorance and stupidity from the "social" movements that cannot understand the values that these warriors display.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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