Bundesmarine ship names

Naval discussions covering the latter half of the 20th Century.
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George Roumbos
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Postby George Roumbos » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:22 pm

Hello Ulrich,
as ussuall your are right on the money and with further infos'.
Last jear, there were 2 of the ships still in the Wilhelmshaven Marine Arsenal docks, the third one on it's way to be broken up. That's where we were told that the other two would have similar fates.
Good to know that they are keeping one for the Marinemuseum, wich we also visited last May, very recomended and don't forget to take the boat trip :D

Rgds,
George
"Ich lasse mir doch mein Schiff nicht unter dem Arsch wegschiessen. Feuererlaubnis !"

George "tango-echo" Roumbos, Hellas

www.emioannina.gr

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RF
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Postby RF » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:23 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:RF:

I suppose post German re-unification this is the least controversial policy,
even though there would still be some names that would be avoided, such as Altmark for example.


I disagree with this remark, RF. Nowadays the "political correct movement" is stronger than it may have been in the 80ies or begining the 90ies. If something sounds more or less agressive or "fascist" (or at least is perceived this way) by "pacifists" or "social democrats" or the such then you are in problems, lad. You´re gonna be inmediately called a nazi or such.
Location names doesn´t post that problem, a place is a place... well, I believe that a Nuremberg could arise some problems, but names of soldiers are a different matter. Which is just plain ignorance and stupidity from the "social" movements that cannot understand the values that these warriors display.


I mentioned Altmark because of its record as a prison ship, rather than the place called Altmark.

Political correctness is a major curse in Britain today - the EU superstate, the unproven ''global warming'' theory presented as if cast iron fact - all designed to serve the ruling nomenklatura which the humble citizen has to pay for in taxation.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Karl Heidenreich
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:52 pm

RF:
Political correctness is a major curse in Britain today - the EU superstate, the unproven ''global warming'' theory presented as if cast iron fact - all designed to serve the ruling nomenklatura which the humble citizen has to pay for in taxation.


I agree, that´s why there is never going to be a new Bismarck or Tirpitz warship. First, not because those names can be associated with nazism but because they are related with a German Reich that was agressive and expansionist (never to mention why the German Reich was so agressive after 1870). And, second, Bismarck as a ship is synonymous of that great naval feat and epic adventure that doesn´t belong with the common perception of Germans at war (that of being nazi criminals of war without courage). Nor Schroeder nor Merkel nor any contemporary "democratic" German will dare to name a ship Bismarck or Tirpitz or Blucher.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Postby Ulrich Rudofsky » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:38 pm

I wonder what the German readers of this Forum think about naming ships. I, for one, think that "politcal correctness", as espoused in Europe and here in the USA, is a serious infringement on free speech and thought. It's just plain, unadulterated buffalo poop. Sorry, this is not the place for this debate. Or is it?
Ulrich

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Karl Heidenreich
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:45 pm

Ulrich:
I wonder what the German readers of this Forum think about naming ships. I, for one, think that "politcal correctness", as espoused in Europe and here in the USA, is a serious infringement on free speech and thought. It's just plain, unadulterated buffalo poop. Sorry, this is not the place for this debate. Or is it?


I imagine it is not. But, anyway, being a naval issue and we being part of the free world (until Islam conquer all Western countries using their "right" to be tolerated) I believe we must continue with our discussion. After that all ships must be called USS Alah Maru or HMS Mustafá.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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RF
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Postby RF » Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:23 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:RF:
Political correctness is a major curse in Britain today - the EU superstate, the unproven ''global warming'' theory presented as if cast iron fact - all designed to serve the ruling nomenklatura which the humble citizen has to pay for in taxation.


I agree, that´s why there is never going to be a new Bismarck or Tirpitz warship. First, not because those names can be associated with nazism but because they are related with a German Reich that was agressive and expansionist (never to mention why the German Reich was so agressive after 1870). And, second, Bismarck as a ship is synonymous of that great naval feat and epic adventure that doesn´t belong with the common perception of Germans at war (that of being nazi criminals of war without courage). Nor Schroeder nor Merkel nor any contemporary "democratic" German will dare to name a ship Bismarck or Tirpitz or Blucher.



Don't associate Bismarck with German aggression or expansionism. Bismarck created the German state by unifying Prussia with Bavaria and the remaining north German principalities. He excluded Austria from Germany and wanted friendship with Britain and Russia to counterbalance France.

It was Kaiser Wilhelm II who started German ambition and aggression. His first act on becoming emporer in 1888 was to sack Bismarck.

I don't think Bismarck any more inappropriate a name for a small ship than the Italians naming a ship after Garibaldi, or the Spanish calling a ship El Cid.

The nazis named a battleship after Bismarck in support of policies Otto von Bismarck would have been appalled with.

Was it inappropriate for the Bundesmarine to name a ship after Lutjens or Rommel?

Marshall Blucher was an ally of the Duke of Wellington at the Battle of Waterloo, and played a crucial role in that battle. As an ally of the British I don't think there could be any objection to using his name for a warship.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:13 pm

RF:

I agree with your remarks about Bismarck and Blucher. But many persons would find their "political rightfulness" infringed by that. Bismarck´s means to reunite Germany was, simply stated, war against Denmarck, war against Austria and, very important, a whipping to France (Battle of Sedan rings a bell?)
For me any of those names seem apropiate. But not to other persons.

Best regards.

P.S. Blucher is one of my favorite historical characters.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Postby Ulrich Rudofsky » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:05 pm

I think the ship's name BISMARCK took on an entirely brand-new meaning when this battleship of the Kriegsmarine was launched by Hitler and sailed into action and made naval history. The ship's mercurial rise to fame is quite unrelated and divorced from the Iron Chancellor's own character and legendary accomplishments . The Schlachtschiff BISMARCK and the Reichskanzler OTTO von BISMARCK are historically separate conceptual phenomena.
Ulrich

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RF
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Postby RF » Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:52 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:RF:

I agree with your remarks about Bismarck and Blucher. But many persons would find their "political rightfulness" infringed by that. Bismarck´s means to reunite Germany was, simply stated, war against Denmarck, war against Austria and, very important, a whipping to France (Battle of Sedan rings a bell?)
For me any of those names seem apropiate. But not to other persons.

Best regards.

P.S. Blucher is one of my favorite historical characters.


As an aside the 1864 war against Denmark was actually used by Tirpitz as an argument for a large German Navy.
This was the war in which Bismarck had annexed the whole of Schleswig-Holstein (the Danes got a small part of it back in 1919). In that war the Prussian Army easily won but Prussia was blockaded completely on the coastline by the Danish Navy and the Prussian coastal defence force was impotent.

Rather ironic that Tirpitz got his Navy - then it too was effectively blockaded in WW1!
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Karl Heidenreich
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:15 pm

Ulrich:

I think the ship's name BISMARCK took on an entirely brand-new meaning when this battleship of the Kriegsmarine was launched by Hitler and sailed into action and made naval history. The ship's mercurial rise to fame is quite unrelated and divorced from the Iron Chancellor's own character and legendary accomplishments . The Schlachtschiff BISMARCK and the Reichskanzler OTTO von BISMARCK are historically separate conceptual phenomena.


That´s true, very true, Ulrich. I haven´t seen it that way until you pointed it out. Of course there are two different perceptions, being the contemporary naval one that of the Battleship, not the Chancellor´s.
But that doesn´t help neither to have a new Bismarck vessel in the Bundesmarine. If something has a "feeling" of agressive nature is Bismarck, the ship that blew Hood and was hunted by the entire British Atlantic (Home) Fleet... and which crew claimed to had scuttled before to give the victory to the enemy... quite a story, ah?
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Postby IronOutlaw » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:16 am

Interesting thread.

I doubt there will ever be another Bismarck, not for any political reason, but simply because the name is preserved for the gallant stand Bismarck made against overwhelming odds.

She has joined other names that will likely never be used again, also representing major losses, Yamato in Japan, and Hood in Britain.

In both cases, like Bismarck, so much of the nation's prestige rested on these ships. HMS Hood, was the Royal Navy, as much as HIJMS Yamato was a final expression of the code of Bushido.

As far as hereditary place names go, some names, ie., Königsberg, no longer exist. But there is Emden V, "Die Schiffe mit dem Eisernen Kreuz."

Had the pleasure of visiting her in the Bauhafen in Wilhelshaven, where Tirpitz was built, in Sept 2000. (I was esacaping from the Olympics in Sydney.) I had earlier sent a piece of timber fashioned into a pen and ink stand to the ship as a gift for the Captain's desk in his day cabin. The pen and ink stand was made from timber recovered from the original HMAS Sydney prior to her scrapping, and it was the first HMAS Sydney which destroyed the first SMS Emden in 1914.
Brad Golding

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rclark
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Bundsmarine Ships Names

Postby rclark » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:48 pm

Hi Folks,
I can see it now the new nuclear powered aircraft carrier coming out of Germany "the B.M.S. Adolf Hitler", . Talk about trying to find a crew
R Clark

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Postby IronOutlaw » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:59 am

Hmmmm.......

Not sure, but is it not now the Deutschesmarine?

I understand that Bundesmarine was used to distinguish it from the Volks marine when Germany was divided.

Brad
Australia
Brad Golding

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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Postby Ulrich Rudofsky » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:40 am

"Deutsche Marine" is now correct or just "Die Marine" when at home. http://www.marine.de/01DB070000000001/C ... L236INFODE But the navy are part of the Bundeswehr - Federal Armed Forces
http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bwde
Ulrich

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rclark
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Bundesmarine .....

Postby rclark » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:49 am

Hi,
So when a German ship is is finished what are the letters in front
ie ours is HMCS. America USS Germany ???
Ron Clark


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