Admiral Zheng He (Cheng Ho) treasure ship design

General naval discussions that don't fit within any specific time period or cover several issues.
User avatar
Ulrich Rudofsky
Contributor & Translator
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:16 pm
Location: State of New York

Admiral Zheng He (Cheng Ho) treasure ship design

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky »

The Admiral Zheng He (Cheng Ho) is believed to have discovered America earlier than Columbus. The admiral’s “treasure ship” was a wonder of the world with 9 masts and 12+ sails, water-tight compartments (also for keeping live fish and for bathing), and triple rudders. Large models in museums, and also sold as a kit by Trumpeter, give dimensions that are bizarre; at 1:1250, the model would come out to approximately 12 cm LOA, 12 cm keel to truck, and a beam of 4.9 cm! Therefore, has anybody seen plans or documents that would disagree with my estimate of this grapefruit-wedge-shaped ship. I would like to gather some more data before I start this miniature model http://ship1250photo.com/index.php?cat=10005. http://www.chinapage.com/zhenghe.html
http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/mar ... aJapan.htm
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b138/ ... ria500.jpg
Ulrich
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Post by RF »

The Vikings (Eric the Red) were in fact the first Europeans to discover America, centuries before Columbus.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
User avatar
Ulrich Rudofsky
Contributor & Translator
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:16 pm
Location: State of New York

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky »

I know that, but in America we have a holiday and parades only for Columbus and not for Leif Erikson a.k.a. Eric the Red. http://stockholm.usembassy.gov/Holidays ... umbus.html :lol: . I imagine that has something to do with political expediency. The Italians and Hispanics are a strong voting block. The Scandinavians here have made some attempts to restore Eric the Red to his rightful place, but it always fizzzels, partly because of several questionable historical items like the Kensington Runestone found in Minnesota.

There is even some mention of Viking ships (silvery snakes) in the sagas of some Florida and South American Indians.

I obviously have no doubts that Vikings, perhaps even Irish monks came here before Cloumbus. But then there are the Mandan Indians of Welsh ancestry :lol:
Ulrich
User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1847
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Post by marcelo_malara »

I think that the problem with the vikings is that the discovery was not carried on with long time settlements, so the fact that they came first was forgotten.
User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Marcelo:
I think that the problem with the vikings is that the discovery was not carried on with long time settlements, so the fact that they came first was forgotten.
I agree. My dad, who is Norwegian, always told me that about the Vikings. They were more interested in another land where they settled and were able to stablish one of the greatest nations on earth: Russia.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
User avatar
Ulrich Rudofsky
Contributor & Translator
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:16 pm
Location: State of New York

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky »

History is sometimes influenced by "National Romanticism" or "Romantic Nationalism".

But I am still looking for the Eunuch Admiral's ship plans (which were burned when the emperor died, they say) or reconstructed plans for models. The length to beam ratio appears to be enormous in museum models, but the Chinese measurement are recorded . My 1:1250 model would have to be approx. 12 cm LOA, 12 cm keel to truck, with a hefty 4.9 cm beam. Hard to believe that this thing could move through the water.....the shape of a rugby ball.........
Ulrich
User avatar
Admiral-scheer
Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:43 am
Location: Ottawa,Canada

Post by Admiral-scheer »

I believe the suprising thing about the ships is it Beam. At 4.9cm on a 1:1250 model, the real ship would have a beam of 50-60 meters long (approx) :shock: :shock: :shock:


From Wikipedia:
…We stopped in the port of Calicut, in which there were at the time thirteen Chinese vessels, and disembarked. China Sea traveling is done in Chinese ships only, so we shall describe their arrangements. The Chinese vessels are of three kinds; large ships called chunks (junks), middle sized ones called zaws (dhows) and the small ones kakams. The large ships have anything from twelve down to three sails, which are made of bamboo rods plaited into mats. They are never lowered, but turned according to the direction of the wind; at anchor they are left floating in the wind.

Three smaller ones, the "half", the "third" and the "quarter", accompany each large vessel. These vessels are built in the towns of Zaytun and Sin-Kalan. The vessel has four decks and contains rooms, cabins, and saloons for merchants; a cabin has chambers and a lavatory, and can be locked by its occupants.

This is the manner after which they are made; two (parallel) walls of very thick wooden (planking) are raised and across the space between them are placed very thick planks (the bulkheads) secured longitudinally and transversely by means of large nails, each three ells in length. When these walls have thus been built the lower deck is fitted in and the ship is launched before the upper works are finished." (Ibn Battuta).
If you look at models and representations the ships were really wide, unlike the Europeen ships. Columbus' ship Santa Maria was 82 ft long (roughly 20 meters, unlike Zheng He's being more then 100m long.
Just look at your scale models of chinese junks as they have the same layout.

After the voyages zheng He had the ships were decomminsoned and left to rot in the harbours. Apprently the Chinese forgot how to manufacture the ships (possibly has to do the plans being burnt as Ulrich said) . :( :(

In general I believe the wide beam is very true.
Best regards
User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1847
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Post by marcelo_malara »

water-tight compartments (also for keeping live fish and for bathing), and triple rudders. Large models in museums, and also sold as a kit by Trumpeter, give dimensions that are bizarre; at 1:1250, the model would come out to approximately 12 cm LOA, 12 cm keel to truck, and a beam of 4.9 cm! Therefore, has anybody seen plans or documents that would disagree with my estimate of this grapefruit-wedge-shaped ship.
I have read 4 books about wooden ship construction. Two points come to my mind:

-western shipwrights could never make watertight compartments in wooden ships, even in the recently clipper era. They have to wait until the advent of iron and steel to subdivide the interior of the ships. Moreover, it was very difficult to make perfectly waterproof the outer skin, so a little water would always enter.

-ships (like the Columbus ships) were short because of the limitations of the technology of the era. With the advent of internal iron reinforcement bands, LOA reached more than 50 mts.

So it is very difficult to believe that a ship that size could be constucted in those years.
User avatar
Ulrich Rudofsky
Contributor & Translator
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:16 pm
Location: State of New York

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky »

Thanks for all the help. I think I will follow roughly this model. 1:1250 will be 12 cm x 5cm. Hight approx. of main mast 7 cm.
Image

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/0 ... g-he.shtml
Ulrich
User avatar
Ulrich Rudofsky
Contributor & Translator
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:16 pm
Location: State of New York

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky »

I have finished the Zheng He Treasure Ship
The details about building the 1:1250 miniature ship are at http://ship1250photo.com/index.php?cat=10005

http://ship1250photo.com/displayimage.p ... fullsize=1
Ulrich
Bgile
Senior Member
Posts: 3658
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:33 pm
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Post by Bgile »

Wow. Pretty amazing.
User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Normandie was quite a big ship, a couple of feet longer than Queen Mary. Being the dimensions correct the chinese ship was overwhelming, incredible. It was bigger than the Spanish ship of the line Santisima Trinidad...
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
User avatar
Ulrich Rudofsky
Contributor & Translator
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:16 pm
Location: State of New York

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky »

Yes. Also there are no plans, there is pretty good evidence that these treasure ships were immense. One rudder post was excavated that suggest it would have been OK for a 500 ft ship!

My next Project is the HMS Habakkuk. I will make it from ice cream, chocolate and marzipan as soon as the outside temperature is -1 F. At 1:1250 it would be 48 cm long X 7 cm wide! Deck to keel 5 cm. The deck will be Lindt chocolate thins etc. If I get it done, which is doubtful, I will pot the mold for the hull and the final product........ :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ulrich
herrmill
Junior Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:48 pm

Re: Admiral Zheng He (Cheng Ho) treasure ship design

Post by herrmill »

I came upon this thread just the other day as I was researching more on the paint schemes for Zheng He's treasure fleet.

I am currently finishing an RC conversion of Trumpeter's Cheng Ho treasure ship which I picked up last month from a hobby shop in Shanghai. Aside from some glaring inconsistencies in regards to scale - their designer must have been drinking too much beijou as he worked up on the kit - its an easy build & makes for an easy conversion to RC due to the huge amount of space in the one-piece molded hull & large rudder.

At 60cm long, I didn't go to the trouble of making it a working rig with sail servo but will have enough slack on the sheets it allow it to sail on a broad reach as well as downwind. When the wind doesn't want to cooperate, the 380 motor I installed should push this beamy tub around quite easily.

Does anyone know of other conversions made with this kit?

Chuck

Image
User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1847
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Admiral Zheng He (Cheng Ho) treasure ship design

Post by marcelo_malara »

Hi guys. Those still believing the crazy theory of the giant ships should read this page http://www.1421exposed.com/.

Regards
Post Reply