June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

General naval discussions that don't fit within any specific time period or cover several issues.
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Karl Heidenreich
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June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Well, it has been 67 years since the Normandy landings. An incredible effort to liberate Europe from opression. Despite the controversies we must acknowledge the courage, skill and sacrifice of those that fought in that Campaing. US and Canadian citizens died on the sands of a country that they never knew and were not able to return to their loved ones. Brave british soldiers alongside these heroes faced the German enemy for a second time in less than thirty years.

And for those Germans that fought, also, as Michael Wittman, they were more than brave facing a numerical superior enemy that had air supremacy. And you are still brave:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0d-6073ypw

Hail to all those: Americans, British, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and Germans that 67 years from today were fighting like tigers for their countries and beliefs.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Re: June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

Post by frankwl »

I'm glad somebody remembers Canada and Juno beach, you'd hardly know that happened if the movie industry was responsible for world history. For that matter you'd have to beat a Canadian over the head before they remembered what their country did on D-Day in spite of the fact that Juno was second only to Omaha for resistance yet the Canadians triumphed and moved inland. Hummphh, that's not why I''m posting, but I get carried away. I know little about ordinance but I've always been puzzled why naval gunfire, from battleships to destroyers, couldn't take out more of the German defences. Later in the campaign 15 inch shells were obliterating or flipping over tiger tanks so why couldn't they take out the stationary concrete emplacements housing those damned MG 42s?
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RF
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Re: June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

Post by RF »

And don't forget the Free French, Belgain, Dutch and above all Polish forces that took part in the Allied campaign. And of course the FFI - the French Forces of the Interior.
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Re: June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

Post by frankwl »

Poland is the most badly abused nation in history as far as recognition is concerned. They knew they couldn't defeat Nazi Germany alone but fought like tigers waiting for the western allies to move and if France had gone east when the Poles won the battle of Mokra the Second World War would never have happened. The defence of Warsaw is legend and while their country was being obliterated the Poles found time to give the secret of Enigma to the allies and invent the mine detector. And get some of the best trained pilots in the world out to the west to eventually contribute to the victory of the Battle of Britain. Their underground had to be the scariest the Nazis had to contend with, good lord, they stole a V2 and sent it to London. And they didn't get much for their troubles except being thrown to the dogs after the war and left with the legacy that they were so primitive as to attack German tanks with cavalry, which never happened although their mounted infantry moved through some battlefields. Except for the panzer units the German army was horse drawn when it attacked Poland, so don't give me Polish horse stories. Oh, heck, I guess some people just can't get a break and nobody knows or cares anymore that the Poles taught that miliary genius Gustav Adolph how to use cavalry or that, for good or bad, Europe is a Christian continent because of Jan Sobieski pounding south to save Vienna from the Ottomans.
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RF
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Re: June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

Post by RF »

frankwl wrote: I know little about ordinance but I've always been puzzled why naval gunfire, from battleships to destroyers, couldn't take out more of the German defences. Later in the campaign 15 inch shells were obliterating or flipping over tiger tanks so why couldn't they take out the stationary concrete emplacements housing those damned MG 42s?
The same sort of questions were asked by British generals and the British war cabinet at the time of the Battle of the Somme - why couldn't saturation artillery bombardments lasting weeks prior to the British attack take out every living German and every German gun under such intense bombardment?

The answer is that to take out a concrete gun emplacement you have to score a direct hit on the gun itself, or for the shell to penetrate inside the emplacement and detonate there.
Near misses don't disable such positions - the concrete and earth surrouding them act as protection which absorbs or deflects the energy released in the blast. Heavy naval guns firing from miles away just don't have the precision necessary to achieve such direct hits on all of the gun emplacements.

A heavy, unfixed target such as a battle tank can be flipped over by the draught or wind thrown up by the flight or explosion of a bomb or shell - look for example what happened when RAF ''Grand Slam'' bombs were dropped in near proximity to the Bielefeld railway viaduct in 1945 - the RAF considered it very difficult to land a bomb on the bridge itself so they developed a bomb which exploding nearby would have an earthquake type effect and shake/blow the bridge over.
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RF
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Re: June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

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frankwl wrote:Poland is the most badly abused nation in history as far as recognition is concerned. They knew they couldn't defeat Nazi Germany alone but fought like tigers waiting for the western allies to move and if France had gone east when the Poles won the battle of Mokra the Second World War would never have happened.
In September 1939 quite a few of the junior Polish Army officers believed they could defeat the Germans on their own, without help from the French or British or anyone else. This was not simply bravado - Poland, fully mobilised could at that time, put over a million troops in the field, more than the numbers that Hungary and Romania could deploy. And Polands geography was a double edged proposition - while German forces could attack from the north, south and west there was conversely a large bulge of Polish territory (Poznan) that jutted deep into eastern Germany and Berlin wasn't that far from the Polish border....

The Polish strategy against German attack was based on a compromise of vital needs. Most of Polands industry needed to support a war effort was close to the German borders - because most of those industrial areas, prior to WW1, had been part of Germany. This mean't a defense of all the borders was essential and a concentration in the centre around Warsaw would restrict the mobility and flexibility of the Army. The Polish Corridor had to be held to maintain Poland's navy and links to the sea. And of course there was also the question of the eastern border with the Soviet Union.
Where the Polish plan of defence came unstuck was the absence of a ''counter punch'' in Poznan aimed at Berlin. The confidence of those junior officers was in the belief that such a counter punch would happen - it couldn't because only one quarter of the Polish Army could be mobilised by 1 September 1939, and also because the Poles didn't have a couple of armoured divisions with which to attack. The modernisation plan for the Polish Army - originally intended for implementation in 1937 was put back to the summer of 1939 because of budget constraints. Added to this the Polish-German Non Aggression Pact of 1934, plus the fact that Poland collaborated with Hitler over the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia had led the Poles to think wrongly that Hitler wasn't an immediate threat.
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RF
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Re: June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

Post by RF »

frankwl wrote: They knew they couldn't defeat Germany alone but fought like tigers waiting for the western allies to move and if France had gone east when the Poles won the battle of Mokra the Second World War would never have happened.
I think this verdict is right, especially as the Siegfried Line would have been totally inadequate to repel a concentrated French attack had it happened immediately the French declared war.
But the guns in the Maginot Line didn't even bother to open fire - let alone the French infantry and tanks attack. We had the phoney war instead - and on the French-German border it really was a phoney war.
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Re: June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

Post by RF »

frankwl wrote: and left with the legacy that they were so primitive as to attack German tanks with cavalry, which never happened although their mounted infantry moved through some battlefields.
The cavalry attack on panzers did actually happen - there is newsreel of it (filmed by the German propaganda ministry officers on board the tanks) which was shown in the TV series ''The World at War'' first broadcast in the 1970's.
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Re: June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

Post by RF »

frankwl wrote: they stole a V2 and sent it to London.
I don't think they quite managed to steal an entire rocket with warhead!
The Polish resistance photographed a proto type V1 flying bomb that slave workers were working on and also obtained some of the blueprints of the V2.
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Re: June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

Post by RF »

frankwl wrote: Except for the panzer units the German army was horse drawn when it attacked Poland, so don't give me Polish horse stories.
The Germans had six panzer divisions and four ''light divisions'' at the time of Fall Weiss. These light divisions in November 1939 were upgraded to full strength panzer divisions, to give the ten panzer divisions deployed in the spring of 1940.

The Germans also had several motorised divisions for Fall Weiss, which comprised motorised infantry and self-propelled mobile artillery. No horse stories there, Polish or otherwise.
Last edited by RF on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RF
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Re: June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

Post by RF »

frankwl wrote: Hummphh, that's not why I''m posting, but I get carried away.
You don't say !!!!
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Re: June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

Post by lwd »

RF wrote:
frankwl wrote: they stole a V2 and sent it to London.
I don't think they quite managed to steal an entire rocket with warhead! ...
From what they say here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armia_Kraj ... -1_and_V-2 or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Most_III
They got the whole rocket but it's not clear how much of it made it to Britain. As it was a test rocket the warhead was likely inert.
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Re: June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

Post by frankwl »

Yes, but they rolled a V2 rocket into a convenient body of water then sat there like gomless peasants saying "What rocket, sir? Seen no rockets sir?" Then took the most important components and sent them to London. Why are you hunting me and attack everything I say? If I offend you I will retire permanently from this site rather than screw it up and reduce it to another YouTube ractial slurring match. Your comment on Reagan/Carter was pretty close, although i must admit I would rather be compared to Carter than Reagan anytime. So long RF, have fun.
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RF
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Re: June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

Post by RF »

I do think a sense of humour is required here. Frankwl, I am not attacking you, I am correcting you when you do get a bit carried away, and amplifying your comments, so please don't go away.

Either way, yes I shall have fun. Life would be rather dull and boring otherwise, wouldn't it?
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Re: June 6th, 1944: Operation Overlord

Post by lwd »

I believe the sites I link said 3 C-47's were involved in the lift. So it could indeed have been the whole missile or major parts of it. Wonder if they are still around somewhere?
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