Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

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marcelo_malara
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Re: Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

Post by marcelo_malara » Sun May 05, 2019 5:13 pm

Hi Wadinga:
I am going to read up on this as it says a lot which can apply about what happened at Denmark Straits.
What happened in DS?

Regards

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Re: Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

Post by wadinga » Mon May 06, 2019 9:55 am

Hello Marcelo,

There are hundreds and hundreds of pages on DS and threads specifically about the lack of torpedo launch by PG at DS although her commander had authorised firing and it was in the hands of the Torpedo Officer to fire when opportunity presented itself. He said the "Reaching Range" was barely achieved before turnaway. He was censured in the report on the action but protested the circumstances and the argument wrangled on for months.

You have indicated U Boat commanders frequently put false range information into their equipment to "fool" the computer into allowing a shot when it would normally have disallowed it. This, I gather from your post, was not because it was actually beyond hitting range, in your quoted case hitting at 4350m, but suggests some designer thought the chances of a hit at progressively longer ranges was so remote, he would stop the attempt even being made, and Captains wished to circumvent this.

Torpedo range is a bit of a misnomer, since an approaching target contributes its own velocity thereby shortening the range at the time of potential impact, allowing launches outside so-called maximum range to be perfectly feasible. Conversely a target moving away from the firing ship increases the effective range and may have moved outside the arc of range from the point where the weapon was launched, by the time it arrives.

All of these predictive computations presume the target does not change course or speed, and Japanese night fighting techniques where the Long Lance was used most successfully, withheld gunfire so as not to warn their opponents of their presence, and encourage them to maintain course and speed. Even where US radar gave an advantage, lack of apparent Japanese "awareness" of his presence might bluff a US opponent into sailing into a torpedo salvo.

It is surprising that that the longest Long Lance hit on USS Strong is still ascribed to an unnamed ship(s). The book "Blood on the Sea" by Robert Sinclair Parkin says the Gunnery Officer in Strong saw the track, and says the story of two retreating, unnamed Japanese destroyers firing extremely long range "Parthian Shots" into Kula Gulf was discovered after the war. Samuel Eliot Morrison writing in the 1960s said Strong was sunk by a mine, but this other evidence seems to negate this.

Firing at such unbelievably long ranges would have been a much more viable matter if the integral acoustic guidance system developed by the Germans for the "Gnat" could have been fitted to the Long Lance. Thank goodness it wasn't.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

Post by marcelo_malara » Mon May 06, 2019 3:52 pm

The torpedo is a deadly weapon, the Uboats achived a 20% hit rate, which is quiet high, specially comparing to artillery. The caveat is that it is so as long as the target does not know it was launched and it was not manouvering, then the hit rate diminishes dramatically. There were more than 150 launched in Jutland for two impacts. In the case of DS I think that the minimum distance achieved in the engagement would barely allowed their use, and the probability of a hit were minimal.

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Re: Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

Post by marcelo_malara » Mon May 06, 2019 3:59 pm

Firing at such unbelievably long ranges would have been a much more viable matter if the integral acoustic guidance system developed by the Germans for the "Gnat" could have been fitted to the Long Lance.
It would requiere a totally new torpedo. The German could develop the GNAT because they already had an electric torpedo, adding the sonar and the guidance was quiet simple. But the Long Lance had no bateries. They would have to choose between:


-convert the Long Lance to electric propulsion, loosing the speed and the range

-maintaining the propulsion system and addind bateries just for the sonar and guidance electronics


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Re: Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

Post by wadinga » Mon May 06, 2019 5:52 pm

Hello Marcelo,
-maintaining the propulsion system and addind bateries just for the sonar and guidance electronics
Good Idea! Worth trading a bit of payload and/or a bit of fuel.
In the case of DS I think that the minimum distance achieved in the engagement would barely allowed their use, and the probability of a hit were minimal.
At DS the Torpedo Officer could see it was obvious the British would change course radically in a few moments, so there was no point in wasting shots. I think the Prinz's Captain under Hood's fire was quite keen to get rid of hundreds of kgs of virtually unprotected explosives sitting on his upper deck as soon as possible.
the Uboats achived a 20% hit rate, which is quiet high, specially comparing to artillery.
How many of those were close range shots against unaware non-manoeuvring merchantmen? Some even at night from the surface a few hundred metres away.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

Post by marcelo_malara » Mon May 06, 2019 10:35 pm

How many of those were close range shots against unaware non-manoeuvring merchantmen? Some even at night from the surface a few hundred metres away.
Most of them!

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Re: Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

Post by Serg » Thu May 09, 2019 8:03 pm

..
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Re: Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

Post by Serg » Thu May 09, 2019 8:08 pm

double
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Re: Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

Post by Serg » Thu May 09, 2019 8:10 pm

HvKleist wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 4:59 pm
We know that the torpedo which hit & sank KORTENAER was from HAGURO because that salvo was launched ~20 mins later than the 43 launched earlier by DesRon 4/NAKA + DDs.
And the next large torpedo salvo launch (by DesRon 2/JINTSU + DDs) was not for another 30-40 mins, or so.
I recommend to read something new, like a T.Womack's book about Java battle:
"Captain Nagasawa, repeatedly pressed Captain Horie, "Not yet Chief Torpedo Officer?" Clearly unhappy with the answer he snapped, "Open them! Hurry up!" Again the crewman reported that the valves refused to budge. At 1652, Captain Nasagawa finally lost patience with Nachi and Horie and ordered Haguro to launch on her own. Her target was the Houston at range of some 22,000 yards. As soon as the torpedoes went into the water, several exploded almost immediately. So did most of the others after a short run, creating monstrous columns of water in the open ocean. The Japanese were initially mystified. The 5th Cruiser Squadron action report credited the explosions to timer controlled Allied torpedoes, large-caliber super cannons or a controlled mine field controlled from Bawean. Not until later was it determined that Haguro had fired her torpedoes with little regard to angle, target speed or other key variables inherent to a successful torpedo attack. In the end, Nachi was unable to launch any torpedoes and Captain Horie was thoroughly humiliated, both personally and professionally. After the battle the "locked" valves were found to have a deceptively simple fix. As it turned out, they had already been fully opened and no one noticed in the heat of the battle."
Looks like most long lances exploded, the salvo itself was unaimed. What chance to hit something by such salvo? Unlikely CA's achieved that success with their ill-prepared crews.

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Re: Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

Post by Byron Angel » Fri May 10, 2019 4:21 am

Hi Serg,
I suggest that you tabulate the Allied warships lost/damaged in the Solomons campaign between August 1942 and the end of 1943. Count how many involved Type 93 torpedo attacks.

B

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Re: Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

Post by marcelo_malara » Fri May 10, 2019 8:46 pm

That already exists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_93_t ... 93_torpedo

Can we compile the number of torpedoes fired to achive this?

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Re: Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

Post by Byron Angel » Sat May 11, 2019 3:37 am

marcelo_malara wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:46 pm
That already exists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_93_t ... 93_torpedo

Can we compile the number of torpedoes fired to achive this?
Hi Marcelo,
That Wikipaedia accounting omits ships damaged.

For example:

1st Guadalcanal -
USS Portland - hit by 1 Type 93, had to return stateside for repairs and was out of service until sometime after Mar 1943 (~6 months)

Tassafaronga -
USS Minneapolis - hit by 2 Type 93s, had to return stateside for repairs and was out of service until Sep 1943 (10 months)
USS New Orleans - hit by 1 Type 93, had to return stateside for repairs and was out of servie until Aug 1943 (9 months)
USS Pensacola - hit by 1 Type 93, had to return stateside for repairs and was out of service until No 1943 (12 months)

Kolombangara -
USS St Louis - hit by 1 Type 93, had to return stateside for repairs and was out of service until Nov 1943 (4 months)
USS Honolulu - hit by 1 Type 93, had to return stateside for repairs and was out of service until Dec 1943 (5 months)
HMNZS Leander - hit by 1 Type 93, had to be sent to USA for repair and was out of service for the remainder of the war.

This is not a complete accounting, but I trust you see where I'm going with this.

B

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Re: Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

Post by wadinga » Mon May 20, 2019 6:16 pm

Hello All,

Yes, yes, yes Byron we all agree the Type 93 was a mighty destructive piece of kit, when it hit, but the question was about hits at very long range and also about massed launches to secure success.

Tassafaronga was perhaps the greatest success.

I am unclear whether the Japanese fired 42 or 44 Type 93s to secure
USS Minneapolis - hit by 2 Type 93s, had to return stateside for repairs and was out of service until Sep 1943 (10 months)
USS New Orleans - hit by 1 Type 93, had to return stateside for repairs and was out of servie until Aug 1943 (9 months)
USS Pensacola - hit by 1 Type 93, had to return stateside for repairs and was out of service until No 1943 (12 months)
and 2 on USS Northampton resulting in her sinking.
The Americans were still unaware of the range and power of Japanese torpedoes and the effectiveness of Japanese night battle tactics. In fact, Wright claimed that his ships must have been fired on by submarines since the observed position of Tanaka's ships "make it improbable that torpedoes with speed-distance characteristics similar to our own" could have caused such damage, though Tanaka states that his torpedoes were fired at a range as short as three miles. The Americans did not recognize the true capabilities of their Pacific adversary's torpedoes (particularly the surface-ship-fired Type 93 "Long Lance") and night tactics until well into 1943.
The vanguard American destroyers had wanted to fire at 7,000 yds on approaching targets, so actual runs would have been shorter but were ordered to wait. In the event all 20 missed because they had passed their enemies' beam and so they were overtaking shots. Tanaka's cruiser targets were in line ahead, 1000 yds between ships. Some of his ships fired before reversing course, some after so ranges varied. The article says Minneapolis was hit at 23:27 probably by torpedoes fired by Suzukaze, only 4 minutes previously, whereas Northampton's hits were at 23:48 having apparently been fired by Kawakazi at 23:33, ie a 15 minute run time. Northampton had apparently stolidly deviated by as little as possible from the line of battle course and speed, and duly paid the price. Honolulu manoeuvred radically, increased speed and came through unscathed, as her measures rendered the Japanese fire control solution obsolete.

So in this very successful Japanese action, 42 shots for 6 hits at ranges of 6,000 yds and up.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Type 93 torpedo longest range hit

Post by Byron Angel » Tue May 21, 2019 7:16 pm

Hi Sean,
The IJN was by no means ignorant of the challenges of long range torpedo fire. IMO the Type 93 was not developed and never envisioned as a "sniper" weapon. Rather, it was seen as a 'shotgun' weapon system developed as part of an integrated Japanese plan to fight and win a major battle fleet confrontation against a superior USN navy. Hence the vast numbers of these torpedoes carried aboard IJN ships, the quick re-load technology, the torpedo's extraordinary range capability and lethality, and the huge per-war emphasis upon night fighting tactics within the IJN.

Evans and Peattie's book "Kaigun" offers a good overview of Japanese plans for such a War Plan Orange fleet confrontation: massive 'browning' attacks delivered at night, involving coordinated converging launches of hundreds of torpedoes from different directions. The old BCs (Hiei, Kirishima, etc) were supposedly to be used sacrificially to assist in blasting a hole through USN screening forces. Worth a read.

- - -

Tassafaronga was indeed a signal Japanese success, made possible principally by the poor conduct of the battle by the US commander.

Kolombangara, (July 43?) was more or less a repeat performance.

B

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