15 cm secondary artillery

[RF]

On such heavily armoured warships would the secondary shell hits actually be noticeable if they didn't hit a piece of exposed equipment or topside works?

[Tiornu]

This is where Bismarck has the advantage. Her upper hull armor was proof against smaller shells. PoW had no armor for her upper hull apart from some splinter plating for the secondary spaces and so forth.
Of course, both ships would be vulnerable in the superstructure, but Bismarck also had a hefty conning tower.

[Bgile]

They were capable of destroying fire control positions, at least the range finder coupulas. That's the biggie.

In addition, they could destroy funnel uptakes, ventilators, secondary battery systems, AAA, aircraft, start fires, and all sorts of similar things. Remember, Graf Spee's armor was never penetrated but the British cruisers did a lot of damage.

Of course, I do agree that Bismarck had an advantage because of her greater armor coverage against cruiser fire.

There wasn't any reason for them NOT to fire, except they would have had trouble spotting their own fall of shot due to the range and the interference from the heavy gun splashes.

[RF]

Remember, Graf Spee's armor was never penetrated but the British cruisers did a lot of damage.

I believe there were a couple of penetrations, including one by Exeter, and there was also the much used photograph taken in Montevideo harbour of the two metre shellhole on the bow.

[Tiornu]

There's one 8in hit in particular that I would like to know more about. The details I've read are way to confused to understand. But it's clear that the shell nearly hit a motor room.

[Bgile]

Remember, Graf Spee's armor was never penetrated but the British cruisers did a lot of damage.

I believe there were a couple of penetrations, including one by Exeter, and there was also the much used photograph taken in Montevideo harbour of the two metre shellhole on the bow.

My point was that shells which don't penetrate armor can cause a lot of damage.

[RF]

There's one 8in hit in particular that I would like to know more about. The details I've read are way to confused to understand. But it's clear that the shell nearly hit a motor room.

The details were given in a book by an officer of the AGS, F.W.Rasenack titled Panzerschiff Graf Spee which I believe was published only in German in the early 1960's. Extracts from this book were extensively used in Millington Drake's compendium.

[VeenenbergR]

In Normandy I was deeply impressed with the long barrelled German naval battery of Longues. All 4 they are awesome. 1 of the guns was hit after being bombarded by 1000's of shells. But they are still there, giving a slight but strong impression of the once powerfull Atlantik Wall.
Nothing "weak" or "inferior" came upon my mind when I visited Longues.

German 15 cm naval guns were present on all 6 light cruisers, the Narvik destroyers and all 7 (pocket) battleships.

In spite their impressive sight and performance statistics (a ROF of 8 shells per minute, a fairly long range, accurate aiming devices) they did nothing to destroy less powerful enemy ships in many instances. Nor did the big Narvik destroyers shot their smaller British opponent out of the water, nor did the Graf Spee ravage his smaller opponents, nor killed the Scharnhorst his nasty and lethal little adversaries, nor did the Bismarck this in his/ her last night.

The Italians were likeswise unsuccesful and finally nor were the Japanese succesful against the nasty little attackers. Especially Samar and Surigao strait became famous and of coarse the night battles around Savo Island.

At Samar the Japanese even failed to wipe out a few nasty destroyers with the cream of their Naval forces: lots of heavy armed heavy cruisers, battle cruisers and even huge battleships. But also Yahagi and scores of their own destroyers were there. They achieved astonishingly little. Sacrificing the huge Musashi and 3 top heavy cruisers only to come in position and then.........final (shameful) dismay.

In contrary the US destroyers with their few torpedo's and few 5 inch gun DID inflict (unbelievable) heavy damage on their big enemies:

- the Kumano her bow was shot away and many Japanese heavy cruisers got riddled, damaged while the US carriers could escape.
Wenn finally the US destroyers were sileneced the Japanese fleet fled away instead of chasing the fleeing US light carriers with their fast but damaged cruisers.

In the mediterranean the aggressive British destroyers were likewise succesful against their heavily armed long ranging Italian opponents.

The Germans in contrary lost the relative big Friedrich Eckholt in a short time against 2 British cruisers and at Narvik they DID loose 10 big destroyers when Warspite attacked them.

Why were all those hundreds of Axis destroyers so unsuccesful, their 6 inch guns so ineffective and why were the British and US destroyers so unbelievable succesful especially their quick firing 5 inch guns?

When thinking of the battle of Samar I am convinced that Allied ships and crews were so much superior than their heavy armed adversaries.

PS Later in the war almost at the end the Japanese also lost their powerful Haguro and Ashigara in 2 duels with the British fleet.

Haguro was trapped like Scharnhorst and killed by a squadron of very effective little insects (destroyers).

How difficult it was to kill ships was also demonstrated by Admiral Hipper which encountered ONCE in her life a totally unprotected Allied convoy but could only sink 7 merchants and damage some others with her 24 torpedo's, over 1000 8 inch shells and 1000's of 4 inch shells.

Even 1 British or US destroyer had done better instead of big Admiral Hipper.

Why were Axis ships so dammned unsuccesful ????????

[dunmunro]

PoW fired her secondary battery as well, and neither side achieved any hits with those weapons.

PoW did fire with her 5.25" guns, but the secondary directors were damaged before they could fire more than a few salvos, and the guns were never ordered into local control. IIRC, she fired very 5.25" few rounds.

[RF]

Why were Axis ships so dammned unsuccesful ????????

Because of the ''no unnecessary risks'' order which applied to all the German ships, and in the case of Hipper deficient engines and short range.

[RF]

PoW fired her secondary battery as well, and neither side achieved any hits with those weapons.

PoW did fire with her 5.25" guns, but the secondary directors were damaged before they could fire more than a few salvos, and the guns were never ordered into local control. IIRC, she fired very 5.25" few rounds.

One interesting point here - could the POW's 5.25 inch guns have targetted Prinz Eugen? Would they have been in effective range and would they be more likely to do real damage to the PE as opposed to Bismarck?

[dunmunro]

PoW fired her secondary battery as well, and neither side achieved any hits with those weapons.

PoW did fire with her 5.25" guns, but the secondary directors were damaged before they could fire more than a few salvos, and the guns were never ordered into local control. IIRC, she fired very 5.25" few rounds.

One interesting point here - could the POW's 5.25 inch guns have targetted Prinz Eugen? Would they have been in effective range and would they be more likely to do real damage to the PE as opposed to Bismarck?

It seems very likely, that had PoW's secondary armament been fully operational, that it would have targeted PE, after Hood was sunk, and the 5.25" shells could have caused problems for PE, by damaging FC equipment and causing underwater damage outside the armour belt. The 5.25" was unlikely to be able to penetrate PE's armour. Just keeping PE engaged would probably have caused some loss of accuracy in her main armament due the the distracting and interfering effect of the shell splashes.