German WWI Armor Piercing Shells?

Guns, torpedoes, mines, bombs, missiles, ammunition, fire control, radars, and electronic warfare.
marty1
Member
Posts: 219
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:31 am
Location: Seattle

German WWI Armor Piercing Shells?

Post by marty1 » Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:38 pm

Hallo Forum:

I am doing a bit of research on the Battle of Skagerak/Jutland. I have been combing my own references as well as the internet for sectional drawings or even photos of armour piercing projectiles used by the Germans during this period of time. I have found only images of the 30,5cm SKL50 psgr projectile in J.Campbell's work on Jutland. I can find no images or drawings of the 28,0cm SKL50 psgr, or 28,0cm SKL45 psgr. Was the 28cm shell simply a smaller version of the 30,5cm shell?

Does anyone know of a good reference where this sort of material might be found? The standard google search hasn't been of any help.

Thanks in advance.
marty

User avatar
Ulrich Rudofsky
Contributor & Translator
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:16 pm
Location: State of New York

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:07 pm

I can see that this is not an easy search. I tried for 280 mm etc. in German and English. There appear to be shells from the "Schleswig-Holstein" in the museum in Gdynia/Gydnia/Gotenhafen. But those are ca. 1930 shells http://www.warship.get.net.pl/My_photos.html

I have asked for help from the "Kaiserliche Marine Foren" and perhaps someone will come up with some pictures and drawings of the WW1 shell. http://www.u-boot-net.de/phpBB/index.ph ... ef462175b0
Ulrich

marty1
Member
Posts: 219
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:31 am
Location: Seattle

Post by marty1 » Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:22 am

Thank you Ulrich. That is very kind of you.

I thought perhaps the PRO might be of some help -- perhaps an Admiralty intelligence report -- or post war analysis of German Ordnance. However nothing obvious jumped out at me in my searches of ADM reports from that period. I think there must be something out there by the Admiralty as the John Campbell image of 30,5cm SKL50 psgr in "Jutland, An Analysis of the Fighting" appears to be British in origin.

Thanks for posting the two links. I think the picture of the 280mm shells are perhaps modernized via the addition of long wind screens\ballistic caps. However, as I have not seen any circa-WWII images of 280mm psgr either -- aside from the KDOS sectional drawings, I have happily added the image to my hard drive data base of German Naval shells.

Best Regards
Marty

User avatar
Ulrich Rudofsky
Contributor & Translator
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:16 pm
Location: State of New York

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:46 am

more "modern" 280 mm shells and the Gneisenau turret Caesar
Ulrich

turlock
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:35 am
Location: virginia, USA

WW1 28cm

Post by turlock » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:56 am

You might also try the Mariner's Mueseum in Newport News, Aberdeen Proving Ground Museum, and Dahlgren Naval Surface Warfare Center, which also has a museum...as well as a 460cm gun.

User avatar
Ulrich Rudofsky
Contributor & Translator
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:16 pm
Location: State of New York

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:30 am

Sorry. Forgot to give the Gneisenau shell address http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/le ... landet.htm
Ulrich

marty1
Member
Posts: 219
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:31 am
Location: Seattle

Post by marty1 » Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:59 pm

Thanks Turlock & Ulrich again. I saw your post on the German Navy Forum. I assume the yellow 280mm shells that are depicted are WWII era high explosive, semi-armor piercing, or common.

A museum is probably the best bet. I started scanning the net for German maritime museums but quickly dead ended as I am not very proficient with speaking or reading Deutsche.

I also tried contacting authors of a number of web sites that specialize in German WWI naval information. Surprisingly even these folks have not seen this sort of information before. Seems rather amazing that sectional drawings or even photos of fairly common German Naval Ordnance would be so difficult to find.

User avatar
Ulrich Rudofsky
Contributor & Translator
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:16 pm
Location: State of New York

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:06 pm

I think that yellow means that they are high explosive bottom fuze for lightly armored targets.
Ulrich

User avatar
Ulrich Rudofsky
Contributor & Translator
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:16 pm
Location: State of New York

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:37 pm

These are projectiles are on deck of SMS PREUSSEN; they could be 28 cm (17 cm?)

http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/galle ... ussen_P04b
Ulrich

User avatar
Ulrich Rudofsky
Contributor & Translator
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:16 pm
Location: State of New York

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:32 pm

Ulrich

marty1
Member
Posts: 219
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:31 am
Location: Seattle

Post by marty1 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:08 pm

Very nice pictures Ulrich. There are numerous excellent photos on this web page. Thanks for posting the URL.

The second photo link you posted looks to include two types of projectiles. The taller projectiles look to be either 305mm or 280mm spgr/common (although I suppose they might also be 15" APC & HE for Baden or Bayern). The shorter, capped projectiles are obviously psgr. Now if only I had a way of determining if these were 305mm or 280mm or 380mm projectiles. :D

Thanks again Ulrich for your continued attention on this subject.

Best Regards
marty

User avatar
Ulrich Rudofsky
Contributor & Translator
Posts: 844
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:16 pm
Location: State of New York

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:19 pm

The belt buckle on the armed guard is 65x45 mm :wink:

Image
Ulrich

marty1
Member
Posts: 219
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:31 am
Location: Seattle

Post by marty1 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:29 pm

Hallo Ulrich:

This is too scary. The first thing that occured to me was to use the big belt buckle as a scale. ;) However I had no idea as to dimensions. Your resources are excellent.

Even though the image is ammunition photo is of excellent quality, it is still difficult to establish precise edges foir either the buckle, or the projectiles. In addition, even nearest projectile appears to be slightly out of plane relative to the sailors belt buckle. It looks like the projectile may be slightly further away from the camera than the sailor with the belt buckle.

Anway, after doing a bit of scaling, I think that I can rule out that the shells are 280mm. They could be either 305mm or 380mm. That's about as close as I can get to a real caliber based upon the belt buckle scaling methodology.

Best Regards
marty

mike1880
Member
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: UK

Post by mike1880 » Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:00 am

I disagree, the shell base is more or less in line with his toes so he's in line or a little behind the nearest one.

Unless he's a giant, the fact that the one nearest him comes to his waist makes it about 40-in tall unless he's very, very tall. So it's either 30.5-cm APC or 28-cm Spgr. The caps on the APC in the background are very apparent, the ones in the foreground clearly don't appear to have them so that suggests they must be Spgr. You should also be able to scale both the man and the shell fairly accurately from the rifle, again unless he's a giant it's a carbine (43-in) not a rifle (49-in) and it's a little longer than the shell so the answer is the same.

Mike

mike1880
Member
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: UK

Post by mike1880 » Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:05 am

Actually, after messing about with the rifle in Powerpoint I think I could happily reverse my conclusions - but all the same I think you're more likely to achieve a result with the rifle and the man than with the belt buckle.

Mike

Post Reply