Triple and quatruple turrets

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Bill Jurens
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Re: Triple and quatruple turrets

Post by Bill Jurens » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:03 pm

To Alecsandros:

I read your post regarding USN gunnery exercises with considerable interest. I have the the reports on all or most of the inter-war exercises here, but don't recall these particular ones; certainly a large number of battleships simultaneously firing at a single target would be unusual. Could you provide a more detailed source for your information on this, please? I could then try to correlate them with data in my own files.

Thanks in advance and much appreciated...

Bill Jurens.

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Re: Triple and quatruple turrets

Post by alecsandros » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:06 pm

The main source is the INRO article that you co-authored, Bill ! :D
It's available online, here:

http://www.navweaps.com/index_inro/INRO ... ery_p1.htm

The exact quote is:

The practice [is to be] fired as a division practice in accordance with the following organizations: West Virginia, Maryland, Colorado, California, Tennessee, New Mexico, Mississippi, Nevada, Arizona, Pennsylvania, Oklahoma, New York, Texas.

[...]

(a) The practice shall be fired as a division practice in which all ships of the division fire simultaneously. In order that there may be reasonable assurance that smoke made by the target screening ship . . . will effectively screen the targets during the firing, it is desirable that the practice be fired when there is a true wind of at least 10 knots.


Sorry if I misunderstood something...

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Re: Triple and quatruple turrets

Post by Bill Jurens » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:50 am

To Alecsandros:

Thank you for this. I am glad to know that my papers are still of interest; sorry to be reminded that I have nearly forgotten some of them.

There is indeed a slight misinterpretation I think; although all ships were to fire in this practice, a little later on it is noted that this was to have been a 'triple concentration practice', i.e. with ships firing in groups of three. Having a larger number of ships firing on a single target simultaneously was in most cases actually counter-productive as the number of shots falling simultaneously meant that spotting was difficult or impossible. The USN did quite a bit of research on this topic in the 1920s and 1930s. (In an incidental variation of this principle of 'too much on target', it was later found that a Brooklyn class cruiser could in ideal conditions put so many rounds on a target that it would be visually buried in splashes.) The idea that twenty or so ships might be firing together simultaneously on a single target is what threw me off.

Hope this helps and, as always, comments welcome. I might have misinterpreted something myself...

Bill Jurens.

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Re: Triple and quatruple turrets

Post by paulcadogan » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:48 am

Ersatz Yorck wrote:I wonder what the practice was in a ship with 6 guns in three double turrets like the Renown and Repulse? I guess one gun from each turret to get three rounds to a salvo.
Correct. Here's a photo:

Salvo from Renown falling near Trento at Spartivento 1940 - not bad for 30,000 yards!:
Image
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Re: Triple and quatruple turrets

Post by alecsandros » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:04 pm

@Bill,
Ah, thanks for the clarifications.

Nevertheless, I was trying to show that other navies also conducted extensive trials, and obtained good results under test conditions...

What would truly be interesting would be to know the details of the German testings, for comparison with the USN.

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Re: Triple and quatruple turrets

Post by Thorsten Wahl » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:49 pm

paulcadogan wrote:
Salvo from Renown falling near Trento at Spartivento 1940 - not bad for 30,000 yards!:
Image
whats the direction the projectiles came from?
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Re: Triple and quatruple turrets

Post by paul.mercer » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:21 pm

Gentlemen,
As ever, your contributions are facinating, were broadsides (all guns) ever used, for instance by KGV & Rodney or by the QE's at Matapan?

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Re: Triple and quatruple turrets

Post by paulcadogan » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:35 pm

Thorsten Wahl wrote:whats the direction the projectiles came from?
The Italian cruisers in this group turned away to port and made smoke when fired on by Renown, which was approaching initially from their starboard beam, so the shells were probably coming in from the starboard quarter in the photo.
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Re: Triple and quatruple turrets

Post by tommy303 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:29 am

were broadsides (all guns) ever used, for instance by KGV & Rodney or by the QE's at Matapan?
In very general terms, battleships usually used salvo fire of one sort or another until range was found and the target acquired and straddled. Broadsides, also known as simultaneous salvos or Vollsalven, could be used to increase the chances of multiple hits as the range closed. That said, broadsides had a down side in that the increased pressure imposed additional strain to the ship's structure, particularly the superstructure and could damage sensitive equipment such as radar; the additional smoke could also hinder spotting.

In the Royal Navy, broadsides were the norm for heavy and light cruisers.

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Re: Triple and quatruple turrets

Post by paulcadogan » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:47 pm

I think it was RN practice to use broadsides in night actions - so this applied to the battleships at Matapan and DoY at North Cape.

In Warspite's report on Matapan:

10:28.00: First 15-inch broadside. Range 2,900 yards. Six guns fired, 5 or 6 hits. The enemy burst into vivid flame...
10:28:10: First 6-inch salvo.
10:28:40: Second 15-inch broadside. Eight guns fired, mostly hit. The ship now a mass of fire.

From HMS Warspite by Roskill.
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