Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Propulsion systems, machinery, turbines, boilers, propellers, fuel consumption, etc.
Byron Angel
Senior Member
Posts: 730
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:06 am

Re: Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Postby Byron Angel » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:51 am

..... A hydraulic coupling system (named after its designer IIRC) was used in certain German destroyers and torpedo boats in WW1. Review of the time were largely favorable.

B

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7490
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Postby RF » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:31 pm

If I may digress for just a moment Noel I hope all the earthquake damage around your city has now been made good.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

Ken Thompson
Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:34 am

Re: Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Postby Ken Thompson » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:35 pm

Byron Angel wrote:..... A hydraulic coupling system (named after its designer IIRC) was used in certain German destroyers and torpedo boats in WW1. Review of the time were largely favorable.

B

Isn't this where Chrysler got the idea for "fluid Drive". From my own experience if fluid leaks out - no drive. In the case of ships drive I guess they would drain the coupling to disconnect the engine and fill it to reconnect. In the case of the US Navy ships in the first post, because the engines were for high shock service they couldn't put on a heavy enough flywheel to damp out the torsional vibrations so had to stay out of certain speed ranges. Fluid couplings such as those on the Barberri class ferries are used to damp out the drive line torsional vibrations.

Noel Martin
Junior Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:49 am

Re: Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Postby Noel Martin » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:15 pm

Hi there guys, just off on a slight tangent, Ive just watch a film on the History program "Sky" It was called " The Battle of the River Plate" British made film of 1956 vintage. It was all about the battle and the finish of the "Graf Spee". Excellent film, they dont make films like that anymore. But I dont think that is the last we will hear about the ship as in Montevideo Uruguay they are still getting various parts from the ship and trying to create a marine memorial around the area she sank and I do believe she can be seen at low tide. Regards Noel! :lol:

delcyros
Member
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:26 pm

Re: Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Postby delcyros » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:27 pm

The hydraulic gear- or fluid coupling mentioned before was invented by Prof. Föttinger and is sometimes therefore also called "Föttinger transformer".
It´s not acting exactly like the Vulcan hydraulic coupling, which allowed a theoretically infinite but practically finite number of sources of power to be transformed into the shaft (say, four engines feeding one shaft) while the Förringer transformer was a hydraulic reduction gear to transform one engine into one shaft. It´s earliest application can be found in a steamer called "Föttinger Transformator" before world war one.
The reduction ratio was usually 1:5 but could be varied. The effeciency reported was 95%.
Examples of it´s basic elements and an installation are shown below:

Image

Image

The main purpose for a Föttinger transformer was to allow a higher propulsive efficiency compared to direct drive turbines in reducing the rpm from the turbine to the shaft and allowing wider, larger props, slower turning to be fitted on the shaft. That combination greatly improved the total propulsive efficiency of early steam turbine driven ships. It also had a couple of other advantages, allowing a lightweighted turbine of smaller diameter to be used (running at higher rpm), and some notorious space reduction of the machinery spaces as can be shown from this comparison of direct drive and Föttinger installation in a large powerplant supposed to be for Dreadnought types:

Image

Source: Hydraulische transformatoren. Föttinger transformer, in: Noticen aus der Stettiner Maschienenbau-Aktiengesellschaft "Vulcan", No. X (Stettin/Hamburg).

Ken Thompson
Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:34 am

Re: Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Postby Ken Thompson » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:57 pm

Fottinger transformer; Looks like a torque converter as in Buick Dynaflow. I don't think it would get anywhere near 95% efficiency and the Dynaflow got an early version of a lock up system to improve the overall propulsion efficiency but the engine to wheel reduction was all in the rear axle ratio. So we need more information.

delcyros
Member
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:26 pm

Re: Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Postby delcyros » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:41 pm

95% efficiency is attainable without reduction of the rpm with the Föttinger transformer (ratio 1:1). With a reduction ratio ranging from 3:1 to 6:1 an efficency of 86% is reported.

Ships buildt with this device are (to my knowledge):

"Föttinger Transformer" buildt by Vulcan. A technology demonstrator buildt 1909, ca. 500hp. Reduction gear ratio of the Föttinger hydraulic drive: 5.6:1

"KÖNIGIN LUISE". A turbine driven steamer buildt by Vulcan, 1914. 2 shafts with 3050hp and 1800rpm each. Reduction gear ratio of the Föttinger hydraulic drive: 4:1

"SMS WIESBADEN". Light cruiser buildt by Vulcan 1915 (sunk at Jutland). 2 shafts with 16,500hp and 1100rpm each. Reduction gear ratio of the Föttinger hydraulic drive: 3.3:1

Not completed: SMS WÜRTEMMEBERG (BAYERN class dreadnought); SMS GRAF SPEE & SMS GRAF EITEL FRIEDRICH (MACKENSEN class battlecruiser).

User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Postby marcelo_malara » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:43 pm

Hi guys, thanks to all for the updates on this post and to Noel for bringing them to my attention (some months ago!).

I am still curious about Herr Nilson scanning, is there more info on this?

Noel Martin
Junior Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:49 am

Re: Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Postby Noel Martin » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:31 am

Marcelo Malara thanks for your comments. I did try and contact you last year regarding the Graf Spee and there is an article I wrote on her and the thoughts of turning her into a museum or some thing similar but you never know Macelo as you are so close to Montevideo, just across the river Plate they may get around to finding one of the 8 main engines and bring one ashore some day. I was in BA for a holiday 2001 and went over Montevideo but couldnt find any thing about the Graf Spee and came back to Buenos Aires went into a sea chart shop and found out all about the ship. Then just arout the corner in a street called Florida Calle off Lavelle there was a book shop who had a book (in english) all about the Graf Spee and that is where I got all my engine details from. I have been to BA 3 times now the last time 2 years ago I took my wife there for a holiday. Just on a side track now I have been watching many programs over the last week or so on the History program about the Titanic (sunk on the 15th April 1912 )and Harland & Wolff of Belfast Northern Ireland where she was built. I did a refit there on a ship called the Waiwera built there in 1944 and the refit was in1964 and this was for Shaw Savill lines. She was also double acting two stroke built by Harland & Wolff (CC Pounder design) to all those guys who still have their CC Pounder marine diesel engine books. On a trip to Australia and New Zealand we had a scavenge fire every day whilst the engine was running all caused by the crap heavy oil fuel we used hence my original notes on engine details of the Graf Spee diesel fuel oil only. Thats all for now guys Kind Regards Noel Martin P/ S Marcelo would like to hear from you my email is noelm@clear.net.nz for all to use. :dance:

User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Postby marcelo_malara » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:21 pm

Hi Noel, I did receive your mail last year but I was really in a hurry and couldn´t spare much time.

I am glad you have been to Argentina, next time do not hesitate in contacting me so we can meet.

Regarding the Spee, I doubt it will ever be raised, or will ever be some major part recovered. Argentina and Uruguay are not rich countries, and there are more urgent needs than raising a foreign warship (or some of its parts) sunk 70 years ago. There is nothing visible of the wreck above water, nor are the waters around good for diving due to the severe lack of underwater visibility.

Anyway, I did some research with the data passed by others about the Fottinger system (which is the basis of the Vulcan coupling). There is an interesting video in youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 7uX-nVmWJc about its working.

Regards

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7490
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Postby RF » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:54 am

marcelo_malara wrote:Regarding the Spee, I doubt it will ever be raised, or will ever be some major part recovered. Argentina and Uruguay are not rich countries, and there are more urgent needs than raising a foreign warship (or some of its parts) sunk 70 years ago. There is nothing visible of the wreck above water, nor are the waters around good for diving due to the severe lack of underwater visibility.
Regards


I don't see any point in raising the wreck.

Argentina and Uruguay may not be rich countries compared with the G7 - but in common with the rest of Latin America I gather they are not doing too badly and a lot better than in the bad old days of dictatorship, inflation and military aristocracies. Argentina I believe is about the eighteenth largest economy in the world? And Brazil is now in sixth place, now ahead of my own country.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Postby marcelo_malara » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:16 pm

Hi Robert. You are right, we are not so much behind, but anyway both countries have more pressing needs than raising the ship. A scandal would erupt if much money is wasted in the salvage operation.

Regads

sineatimorar
Member
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:42 pm

Re: Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Postby sineatimorar » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:18 am

Thought I would pass a bit of 'a mechanic's eye' across the clutch drawing shown. It is a 'torque converter / conveyor ' clutch arrangement commonly used in 'automatic' transmissions instead of the 'pressure plate' clutch of manual shift gearboxes. Difference been what is been 'driven' by the clutch. by varying the hydraulic pressure inside the device you increase or decrease the amount of 'slip' between engine and drive shaft.

sineatimorar
Member
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:42 pm

Re: Graf Spee Diesel Engines

Postby sineatimorar » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:18 pm

I am currently studying the design of the german warship diesel engines . Can any supply dimensions of the four types of engines developed between 1934 and 1944 other than weight of units.


Return to “Naval Propulsion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest