Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

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pasoleati
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Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by pasoleati » Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:25 pm

This new book received pretty bad reviews on Steelnavy board. Seems that the book is not really an "anatomy" at all, having very liite on internal details and more a colour exterior renderings book. Since apparently Draminski is a member here, I would really like to know why he has produced such a mediocrity by not following the standard set be AotS Dreadnought? Lack of sources won't do since, again as per Steelnavy board, original detail drawings exist.

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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by marcelo_malara » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:44 am

What about Draminski´s Bismarck AOTS? It is the only ship that received two books from the series.

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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by pasoleati » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:31 pm

Wasn't the newer AotS Bismarck discussed here already? I would really like to hear Draminski's own input as to how the Iowa book is such a failure. To me the very basic idea of the AotS-series is the concentrate on the innards of the ship, not on the exterior as apparently is Draminski's prime interest.

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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by Kev D » Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:32 am

Although I haven't seen the book in question, I know Stefan personally and was just speaking to him yesterday, so I will see if he would care to comment here. But, seeing how rude and ruthless some people (on some forums) can be it would not surprise me if he does not care to. Lets see.
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

pasoleati
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by pasoleati » Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:19 am

Kev D, I don't know if you have read the negative comments on the Steel Navy board, but to me those comments were very legitimate. The series is called Anatomy of the Ship. Consider a book titled Anatomy of Human Body. Would you expect the book to cover e.g. heart, brain, lungs? Or would you be happy if the book concentrated 90 % on skin cosmetics?

Now, based on the comments on the SN board, the Iowa class is extremely well-covered in American archives plus the obvious fact that actual ships are available for inspection. Yet, Draminski's book has apparently failed to take advantage of neither of these circumstances.

So, the question is: Why Draminski failed to do a proper anatomy treatment despite the source material situation being very advantageous?

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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by Kev D » Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:54 pm

Moi,
pasoleati wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:19 am
Kev D, I don't know if you have read the negative comments on the Steel Navy board, but to me those comments were very legitimate. The series is called Anatomy of the Ship. Consider a book titled Anatomy of Human Body. Would you expect the book to cover e.g. heart, brain, lungs? Or would you be happy if the book concentrated 90 % on skin cosmetics?
First, I am very familiar with (some of the) AOTS books. So I agree, I'd expect to see mostly the interior. And I am not implying the criticism is / wasn't legitimate. But that is no reason (and I see none here so far) to be be rude / downright nasty (as some of the boys at that pit of vipers SteelNavy are at times). After all, you attract more ants with honey than vinegar. :lol:
pasoleati wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:19 am
..........Draminski's book has apparently failed to take advantage of neither of these circumstances...........................So, the question is: Why Draminski failed to do a proper anatomy treatment despite the source material situation being very advantageous?
I dunno, why didnt the Russians go to the moon? :? I do not know why he 'made' it like it is; I don't have the book (nor interest in Iowa's for that matter), so you'll have to ask Stefan, that is if he decides to appear here I guess.

So 'pasoleati', with that said, where are you in Finland if I may ask? Locked down inside Uusimaa, or 'up-country'?
Last edited by Kev D on Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

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marcelo_malara
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by marcelo_malara » Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:00 pm

There are many original scanned plans in the site www.hnsa.org, I think Iowa´s can be found there.

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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by Kev D » Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:49 am

Kiitos for the PM, Paso.

First, I went over to the Viper Pit (SN) but unfortunately it's 'history' only goes back 7 pages it seems, i.e. ends either very late Jan, or early Feb IIRC, and the thread you mentioned wasn't there in those 7 pages (or I couldn't locate it). I bet it was on page bloody 8 (that I can't seem to access)! :stubborn:

Anyway, am still waiting to hear back from Stefan, but...................................upon rereading your posts in this thread, and I mean no offense, but I think if you wanted answers to your questions from him directly, you could have been a touch more polite in your approach, as they do appear somewhat 'accusatory'.

Also, do you know Stefan personally? If not, then IMO it is not very polite to simply call him 'Draminski", either Stefan or Mr Draminksi would be more appropriate / polite. Now, maybe you are in the military where addressing someone by their last name is common, and I am well aware of the 'abrupt' nature of how some Finns speak English (often mistaken as rudeness by folks unfamiliar with Finns), but...........................you almost appear to demand that he come here and explain himself.

It seems you do not have to book either? If not then I wonder why you are so concerned re what it contains or does not contain. And if you don't have it and don't like the SN 'reviews' then don't buy it. Interestingly Amazon buyers of same book, on the whole give it high marks (i.e. 4 stars), but that in itself does not mean it is what you expected by an means. If you have the book, well.......................if you read the SN reviews before buying same then you knew what to expect.

Anyway, more if / when I know more.

Heido, and don't you be drinking to many Karhu brewskis (beers) while in semi lock-down up there, and stay well clear of that Koskenkorva! :D
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by pasoleati » Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:43 pm

Kev:

Go to US Amazon for Daryl Carpenter's review and read the comments too as the latter incorporates some SN critique. I would say that criticism is quite severe.

No, I don't know Draminski personally . Referring to him as Draminski is very much standard practice in Finnish as adding "Mr." (actually its Finnish equivalent) might be considered here as an insult when discussing informally. As I don't know him, referring to him on first name basis feels overtly familiar to me, especially with 3rd parties.

The reason for my heated response is that I had hoped (I didn't buy the book because of the pointed shortcomings) this to be a sort of "ultimate anatomy" because of the previously mentioned ample amounts of source material. Then came the shock that this book has less internal detail than the volumes on 300 years old sailing ships. Unacceptable.

As for drinking Karhu too much, no worries: I am a teetotaler. 😉Literally: I got 350 grams of new teas yesterday.

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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by Kev D » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:31 am

pasoleati wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:43 pm
Go to US Amazon for Daryl Carpenter's review and read the comments too as the latter incorporates some SN critique. I would say that criticism is quite severe.
I beg to differ, I would not call it quite severe, but certainly not a good review, as a 'quite severe' review to me would imply a '1 star' or at most a '2 star' rating there. He gives it a 3. And I wonder how many over at SN that criticized said book had actually bought / seen it?
pasoleati wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:43 pm
No, I don't know Draminski personally. Referring to him as Draminski is very much standard practice in Finnish as adding "Mr." (actually its Finnish equivalent) might be considered here as an insult when discussing informally.
First, it is FAR from an insult to English speakers, it is actually considered politeness, and your reasoning is exactly why some / many 'foreigners' considers Finns very 'abrupt' in their language, if not downright rude. The first time I meet a Finn / or anyone for that matter I do not know personally, or address one I don't know, or referred to one in print, I would call him Mister (Mr.) or Herra so and so, or use their full name. But each to there own. Second, given most people on this forum use / speak English, it certainly would not be considered 'an insult' here when discussing a person informally.
pasoleati wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:43 pm
The reason for my heated response is that I had hoped (I didn't buy the book because of the pointed shortcomings) this to be a sort of "ultimate anatomy"
Yes, but it seems you don't even have the book, but just want to give Stefan a piece of your mind (pala mieltäsi) because it did not live up to your expectations (and even then you seem(?) to be going on what others have said elsewhere). You say you had hoped for the 'ultimate history' (which as I assume you know is different from 'ultimate anatomy', but I get what you mean). Stefan on the other hand has not, as far as I know, claimed that's what it was / is. What his publisher may(?) have said / called it is a different matter altogether.
.
pasoleati wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:43 pm
because of the previously mentioned ample amounts of source material. Then came the shock that this book has less internal detail than the volumes on 300 years old sailing ships. Unacceptable.
Unacceptable to you (and some others) it may be, but as I said, not to most of the reviewers on Amazon, who actually have bought the book.

Anyway, I don't / couldn't care less (en voinut välittää vähemmän) about the book, it has no interest whatsoever to me. But Stefans 3D work does have an interest, as he has illustrated a report of mine exceptionally well.

Be that as it may, Stefan will either take / waste his time explaining his reasoning's to you re said book here (or not), or if he bothers to get back to me with a 'reason', then I'll pass it on if he wants me to.

Until then though, over and out, i.e. hyvästi.
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by marcelo_malara » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:50 pm

May be the culprit is not the author, but the publishing house. Osprey will never be Conway, may be it had been better for Conway to have been taken over by Penn & Sword/Seaforth.

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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by pasoleati » Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:51 am

I have to disagree in part at least. As far as I know, Draminski's primary forté is 3D computer graphics, not "traditional" manual draughtmanships. And that background probably explains his emphasis on external features.

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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by Kev D » Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:02 am

Herra Pasoleati, as the old saying goes, 'ask and ye shall (sometimes) receive'. Below is the answer Stefan (aka Mr. Draminski) sent to me and said should I care to post on forum I could. So.........................as you no doubt know the other old saying that goes "you can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time" this may not assuage your complaints, but it is what it is.

This text is VERBATIM, that is it is EXACTLY as he wrote it / unchanged by me.

“It is my understanding that the main point of critique of the USS Iowa book is inadequate amount of internal detail of the ship. Let me give you some information on the contents. As far as the inside of the ship is concerned, all deck layouts within the hull and the superstructures are shown (scales 1/600 and 1/200 respectively), internal profile and some 15 cross-sections. 16 inch turrets' insides together with their barbettes are shown in full detail. The main stress in this book is put on showing the evolution of Iowa's weapons, fire control, radar, equipment, superstructures, etc, during the battleship's extremely long career. One has to realize the number of items that were had to be covered: 10 types of artillery/missile launchers, over 30 types of various fire control/radar equipment, countless number of superstructure modifications from 1943 to 1988. It's hard to name any other ship outside the Iowa-class with so many features to be covered. All these items were shown in large scales and in full detail. I guess this approach did not meet the expectations of all the readers, but work on this book demanded making compromises – everything had to fit within 350 pages. The resulting 700 scale drawings and 380 colour illustrations barely fit into the page limit – almost every single page's space was used to the maximum.

I guess that the choice of the book's topic alone created some form of a trap – USS Iowa is such a big subject that it would be impossible to cover all her aspects in highest detail in one volume. This would likely take 2 or even 3 volumes – which no publisher would probably agree to and which would encourage too few buyers to be profitable. Both time and page count were limited during my work, and I produced the best results that I could within these limitations. Every work is some kind of a compromise.

Nevertheless, I am far from ignoring the critique and it is a lesson that I will take into account during future work. I guess a more balanced approach towards showing various aspects of a ship could be a good idea. If circumstances are favorable, I might work on a corrected, more complete re-edition of the Iowa book. We'll see.”
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by frontkampfer » Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:17 am

IMHO-a fair enough explanation.
"I will not have my ship shot out from under my ass!"

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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by Kev D » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:56 am

For those so interested, a 'fly-around' uploaded by Stefan yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN09Tf0i3PI
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

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