Das Boot Surfacing Scene

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José M. Rico
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Das Boot Surfacing Scene

Post by José M. Rico »

Most of you have seen "Das Boot" countless times, and this is without doubt one of the most powerful movie scenes ever. I can't imagine how it would have been to watch this on a theater, feeling the tension, the emotions, as if you were inside that sub. Anyway, it is worth watching again!!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkLH9TrO ... re=related[/youtube]
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Re: Das Boot Surfacing Scene

Post by JtD »

It's good with dolby 5.1 and a video projector at home. :)

One of the best war movies ever. Get the DVD if you don't have it already!
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Re: Das Boot Surfacing Scene

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

I saw it at the theater, sometime in 1982. The cinema´s name is Variedades and still exists (is the oldest in Costa Rica). It was the first cut with a lot of material missing. Anyway, very impresive. The third movie I ever saw in which the Germans weren´t despicted as complete idiots from Hollywoodland: the first was Blue Max (excelent!) and then A Bridge Too Far (also excelent!).
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Re: Das Boot Surfacing Scene

Post by RF »

There is also another old film, to use Karl's phrase ''which doesn't show the Germans as complete idiots'' around, called ''Under Ten Flags'' based on the diaries of Bernhard Rogge, starring Van Heflin in the lead role.
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Re: Das Boot Surfacing Scene

Post by dfrighini »

Perhaps my favourite film. Whats great about this film apart from the attention to detail (which is impressive) is the film director (Petersen) seems to have forgotten how to make a film, its more than a film, it does not harbor all the traits of a movie (i.e. 2 hours long max, simplified storyline etc.), Das Boot is about immersion and existentialism, the film itself, like the never ending sentence becomes an experience for the audience, a journey, or process, like the films tag line to the edge of reason. The captain ('Der Alt' or 'The Old' in English) is our guide the the experience, a fatherly figure, and Lt. Werner is a audience, through him we relate to the strange world under water.

This film also has a great soundtrack produced by Klaus Doddlinger, my favourite tracks are 'Heimkehr' (homecoming) & Errnerung (reminder).

I also think 'A Bridge Too Far' and 'Der Untergang' are also great antiwar films. )))
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Re: SMALL ERROR

Post by dfrighini »

I almost forgot, there is one small error in Das Boot which is not mentioned in its IMDB page. Next time you watch the film notice the u-boats enigma machine, it has four rotors, so therefore it is 'SHARK' which I don't think was introduced until 1943. The film is set in December 1941. Small error, still one of the best films. )))
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Re: Das Boot Surfacing Scene

Post by RF »

Oberwarrior, don't forget that the boat itself was fictional, it was not based on an actual voyage.

Also the resurfacing from the visit to the sea floor off Gibraltar avoids the conundrum that it was right outside the British base. As soon as it broke surface it should have been picked up by British radar and come under sustained attack again.... In fact they would have been better off following their orders to go to Italy as they were it appears inside the Med.....
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Re: Das Boot Surfacing Scene

Post by dfrighini »

RF wrote:Oberwarrior, don't forget that the boat itself was fictional, it was not based on an actual voyage.

Also the resurfacing from the visit to the sea floor off Gibraltar avoids the conundrum that it was right outside the British base. As soon as it broke surface it should have been picked up by British radar and come under sustained attack again.... In fact they would have been better off following their orders to go to Italy as they were it appears inside the Med.....
Don't worry, I know its a fiction, I've also read the boot and researched the author and real U-96.

I agree with you comments regarding Gibraltar, this is something I also don't understand. Practically the only way of getting through Gibraltar is submerged, on the currents, traveling on the surface (even by night) is madness. Even taking into account the type VIIC classes short underwater range it should be possible to transverse the straits at slow silent speed. Whilst only a computer game, I've done this a few times on Silent Hunter 3, would never attempt surface running, but then I have the benefit of hindsight.

regards )))
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Re: Das Boot Surfacing Scene

Post by RF »

As I understand it the surface running is a lot quicker than submerged, you get past the danger bottleneck at lot quicker. Quite a few subs managed this trick during 1940/41, in both directions, Italian as well as German. This was before the British had radar in their small escort ships, or substantial air power with which to surprise subs running on the surface.
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Re: Das Boot Surfacing Scene

Post by tommy303 »

If I understand correctly, which is to say if memory serves me well, the flow of water into the Med from the Atlantic provides a current at a certain depth which allowed submarines entering the Med submerged to move at 1 to 2 knots without using their E-Motors beyond the occasional need to alter or maintain course. A sub could therefore manage the transit almost completely silently--or completely so provided all auxiliaries were shut down. This current is at or near the surface and made transit from the Med to the Atlantic difficult for sailing vessels. A second current of higher salt content flowed from the Med to the Atlantic. Subs entering the Med would tend to make use of the upper current flowing into the Sea, while subs exiting the med would use the deeper one flowing from the Sea into the Atlantic.

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Re: Das Boot Surfacing Scene

Post by dfrighini »

tommy303 wrote:If I understand correctly, which is to say if memory serves me well, the flow of water into the Med from the Atlantic provides a current at a certain depth which allowed submarines entering the Med submerged to move at 1 to 2 knots without using their E-Motors beyond the occasional need to alter or maintain course. A sub could therefore manage the transit almost completely silently--or completely so provided all auxiliaries were shut down. This current is at or near the surface and made transit from the Med to the Atlantic difficult for sailing vessels. A second current of higher salt content flowed from the Med to the Atlantic. Subs entering the Med would tend to make use of the upper current flowing into the Sea, while subs exiting the med would use the deeper one flowing from the Sea into the Atlantic.
I believe you are correct about this and have read such myself. Silent speed would only help against a destroyer or ASW trawler that was using passive sonar, it won't make any different if an active system was used. I think I'm right in saying (anyone please correct if I'm wrong) that the only things which can help again an active sonar system are absorbent paints (which the u-boats used later in the war), water temperature, depth and density. I don't know how deep the water is in the Gibraltar straits, but the shallower it is the harder it is to use sonar accurately.

If I was in a u-boat I would do the Gibraltar Straits under water, this is easily possible in 24 hours at a couple of knots, and as 'tommy303' says I would use the currents to my advantage. Sailing on the surface is madness.

Question: Does Gibraltar have any hydrophone installations (similar to what was installed at Scapa Flow)?
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Re: Das Boot Surfacing Scene

Post by tommy303 »

I think passive systems such as hydrophones would be used for the initial detection--one listens for something unusual and when that occurs you try to pinpoint it using active pinging. Depth in the Straits is about 300-900m, so at least on the outward voyage a submarine might be able to get below a thermal and or salinity layer to make active sonar detection more difficult. Of course the deeper you go, the more likely one will have to use bilge pumps once in a while to keep the boat from getting heavier due to leakage, so absolute silent running would not be possible 100% of the time. I don't think there were passive hydrophones in the straits themselves, just in the approaches to and in the Port of Gibralter. For the submariners getting through the straits was tough, as it had to be done submerged after the introduction of sea and air radar. While there was always a chance of being detected in the straits by hydrophones, the greatest danger lay in the approaches to the straits. It was appreciated by the allies, that the approaches were the most important area to patrol. This was because a sub would need to ventilate the boat and charge batteries for the long submerged transit--at least 18 hours or more, after which it would need to surface again. Thus, concentration of radar equipped vessels and aircraft was greater on either side of the straits than actually in them. This might explain the idea of trying to get through on the surface in the movie, as at that time only a small proportion of vessels actually had radar. One would be more likely to encounter a radar equipped ship or plane outside of the straits than in them in 1941. Of course, later in 1942 and 43 when supply of radars was finally catching up with demand, the whole exercise became fraught with danger.

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Re: Das Boot Surfacing Scene

Post by dfrighini »

tommy303 wrote:I think passive systems such as hydrophones would be used for the initial detection--one listens for something unusual and when that occurs you try to pinpoint it using active pinging. Depth in the Straits is about 300-900m, so at least on the outward voyage a submarine might be able to get below a thermal and or salinity layer to make active sonar detection more difficult. Of course the deeper you go, the more likely one will have to use bilge pumps once in a while to keep the boat from getting heavier due to leakage, so absolute silent running would not be possible 100% of the time. I don't think there were passive hydrophones in the straits themselves, just in the approaches to and in the Port of Gibralter. For the submariners getting through the straits was tough, as it had to be done submerged after the introduction of sea and air radar. While there was always a chance of being detected in the straits by hydrophones, the greatest danger lay in the approaches to the straits. It was appreciated by the allies, that the approaches were the most important area to patrol. This was because a sub would need to ventilate the boat and charge batteries for the long submerged transit--at least 18 hours or more, after which it would need to surface again. Thus, concentration of radar equipped vessels and aircraft was greater on either side of the straits than actually in them. This might explain the idea of trying to get through on the surface in the movie, as at that time only a small proportion of vessels actually had radar. One would be more likely to encounter a radar equipped ship or plane outside of the straits than in them in 1941. Of course, later in 1942 and 43 when supply of radars was finally catching up with demand, the whole exercise became fraught with danger.
Very interesting, thank you again for you information. Until the invention of centimetric radar do you think it would be possible to approach the straits on the surface, but with the boat trimmed low in the water, I believe the u-boats did this to conceal there position. With the early war radars it would be possible to avoid being detected on radar because of the reduced signature (i.e. only the conning tower above the water). I think on the standard VIIC class u-boat the engine exhaust outlets are on the back of the conning tower (correct me if I'm wrong please), so surface running like this should not be a problem, however you would need a sharp lookout. Later war this certainly would not be possible as a remember reading some aircraft mounted centimetric radars could even detect a snorkel head.

I think you are right about the journeys timing under water, this would take at least 18 hours straight through, although in real life I suspect it might take long when you have accounted for maneuvers etc, probably 24 to 30 hours. I think the extreme endurance of a VIIC u-boat is in the region of 30 to 36 hours (yet again correct if wrong).

Also I remember reading that u-boats had some system of pumping out water (bilge water I think) which would create bubbles on the surface, this could be come crucial on a long dive in a crowed place like Gibraltar? Do you know more about this.

kind regards )))
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Re: Das Boot Surfacing Scene

Post by tommy303 »

I think on the standard VIIC class u-boat the engine exhaust outlets are on the back of the conning tower
The air induction vents were situated in the conning tower structure and ran down the conning tower structure and under the deck casing to the engine room. The exhaust vents ran from the engine room, under the aft deck casing to discharge points in the outer hull casing in the region of the after torpedo or E-motor room. On early Type VIIA and B models, the discharge outlet was above the waterline. With the Type VIIC the vent was moved so that the exhaust discharge would be underwater, thus reducing the visual signature of the exhaust. The boats could trim so that the decks were awash or nearly so and still operate their diesels as the exhaust pressure was sufficient to keep water from backing up into the engines. The main reason to do this was not so much to reduce radar signature as it was to insure the boat could dive more quickly if an emergency occurred. The main signature from radar was on the conning tower anyways, and as long as it was above water, it would register as a target, albiet a small one, out to 7000 or 8000m. The hull, even at normal surface trim did not reliably reflect much as its signature tended to be lost in the back ground scatter caused by waves.

As far as pumping out bilge water or water from the trim tanks to compensate for increased weight as the boat remained submerged, the main problem was not so much bubbles, particularly if the pumping was done at depth, as it was the noise created by the bilge and trim tank pumps. At times, if one was very deep, one might have to used compressed air to force water out of the tanks, but this was mostly an emergency measure.

Under silent running conditions, it was normal to shut down all pumps--bilge pumps were automatic and would normally kick in when water in the bilge reached a certain level. With all auxiliaries off and with the E-motors off, a boat could move with the current in absolute silence. The problem is that all boats leaked a little through the numerous openings in the pressure hulls (exhaust, induction, shaft, hydroplane and rudder glands, etc). The deeper you went the more leakage would occur and the heavier the boat would get over time, to the point where you would have to use the E-motors more and more to maintain depth. If you were very very deep, you might have to use compressed air to lighten the boat, as the deeper the boat is the more difficult it becomes for the pumps to move water out of the boat (due to the very high water pressure).

All in all, the passage through the straits was a tricky one at best. The submerged approach to, transit through, and exit from the straits might easily take 24 hours or more and as there was about 40 hours of breathable air on board, one might be cutting things a bit close. One could probably calculate it all out, but I should imagine that over 24 hours and dwindling supply of oxygen would begin to reduce crew response time in emergencies and begin to affect the judgement of the crew.

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Re: Das Boot Surfacing Scene

Post by Bgile »

The submarines I was on never used compressed air to reduce ballast except in an emergency. For one thing, it's much noisier than a pump by I'd guess several orders of magnitude. Our trim pumps were designed to operate at our maximum depth. Also, bilges were not pumped automatically. That sounds like a bad idea to me because it might happen at the exact moment when you wanted to be very quiet.

I wasn't on my first submarine until the late 60s, though.

Destroyers, in general, were terrible passive sonar platforms. They had a lot of self noise and at that time weren't designed with noise reduction in mind. I'd think it would be very hard to detect a submarine that way unless it passed very close to the destroyer, especially if the submarine was trying especially hard to be quiet. I don't recall ever reading of a WWII destroyer making initial detection on a submarine passively. All I've ever heard of was active sonar or radar, and usually it was radar and then active sonar after they got within a relatively short distance.

Maybe the info is out there and I missed it, but that's my take on this. It may be that actual experience for U-boats was quite different from mine in that respect. Maybe they were just really noisy, I don't know.
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