KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

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Haratio Fales
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KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby Haratio Fales » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:12 pm

Hello all. I am a 48 year old U.S. Military Vetran of both the U.S. Navy, and Army. I participated in Desert Shield and Storm. I have built models from the age of 5 and have studied military and war history from the age of 12.

I am currently working on the biggest model project that I have undertaken in my life. I have built a 1/72 scale Hull for a Z plan M class Kreigsmarine light cruiser. From all sources gathered the indications that the name of the first ship of this class would have been Munich, so I'm rolling with that. I have obtained some yard drawings and notes from a good friend when I was stationed in Germany, and a good set of line drawings from The Dreadnought Project. so I believe that This is a very accurate representation of what the ship would have looked like.

The project is posted on 6 model building forums. The easiest to find with the best pictures is The Jolly Roger Shipyard. go to the Dockyard section, and click on Scratch Build Logs. There are only 4 projects here of which 1 is mine, and 1 from a friend of mine who lives in Malta, Italy who is building a 1/72 scale Battle Cruiser Sharnhorst. I have seen a few minor discussions about this vessel class on here, so I thought I would share my thoughts and project.

Haratio Fales
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Re: KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby Haratio Fales » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:55 am

Picture 008.jpg
Deck plans enlarged.
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Here is a photo of the project start.

Haratio Fales
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Re: KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby Haratio Fales » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:12 am

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the aft most twin 5.9 / 150 mm turret with the barbette for Caesar turret showing.
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Note the Torpedo's and Aircraft hanger.
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The ship would have been about 10,000 tons or a bit over when fully loaded so they would have even been ok to the treaties. by 1940 this wouldn't have been an issue though but with the lack of range on the existing K class cruises these ships would have been most welcome to the kriegsmarine. If they could have built them earlier then during the battle of the river platte, one of these cruisers accompanying the Graph Spee could have made a decisive victory for the Germans. Or as a third ship with Prince Eugan and Bismarck. They wouldn't have been been able to fight against Battleships however they could have provided extra AA against air strikes, and could have helped the Prince Eugan engage the Norfolk and Suffolk in the Denmark strait early on so they couldn't shadow Bismarck.

Haratio Fales
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Re: KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby Haratio Fales » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:31 am

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whats left of an old ME 109 model for scale comparison.
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The 1/72 scale makes the model 8 foot 8 and a quarter inches long from tip to tip, although the plans say 179 meters between parallels. actual overall length would have been 181 meters. this was only 25 meters shorter than The Hipper's and 9 meters shorter than the Sheer's
(76.45 KiB) Not downloaded yet
These ships would have also been welcome when the Tirpitz and Scheer were attacking convoys with Hipper and destroyers in the North sea theater as the British always seemed to have been able to get the German destroyers alone with bigger ships. I am not arguing that these ships would have turned the tide of the war, but they could have extended the effect of tying up the British fleet and could have changed the outcome of some of the engagements. Like if Sharnhorst could have escaped the night that she sank, it would have been one more capital ship to stick in the side of Briton and keep major units in certain areas just encase she showed up. A light cruiser of this type could have been the accompanying factor that allowed Scharnhorst's escape.

Haratio Fales
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Re: KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby Haratio Fales » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:42 am

Picture 017.jpg
(42.9 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Picture 018.jpg
cutting out the deck in wood.
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[attachment=1] These ships were large for there intended use, except for the range that they wished to obtain for them. they could have been easily modified to carry 3 twin 8 inch turrets however at a later date, although I don't believe that this would have ever transpired, it would have been posible as the size and displacement would have allowed it. The Germans did attempt to modify Gneisenau in this way and the time ran out so they sunk the hull as a harbor blockade device.
Last edited by Haratio Fales on Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:55 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby Haratio Fales » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:50 am

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The keel and ribs start of the bow. the first 4 four of these ships were to be basically this design, with the last 2, Q and R planed to be slightly enlarged over these but with the same main gun layout.

Haratio Fales
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Re: KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby Haratio Fales » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:59 am

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the ribs are a bit wide however I'm using them for a base guide line.

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Re: KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby Haratio Fales » Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:02 am

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adding the rib supports and the bow runner.
Attachments
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frontkampfer
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Re: KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby frontkampfer » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:33 pm

Terrific work!
"I will not have my ship shot out from under my ass!"

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RF
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Re: KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby RF » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:49 pm

Haratio Fales wrote:The ship would have been about 10,000 tons or a bit over when fully loaded so they would have even been ok to the treaties. by 1940 this wouldn't have been an issue though but with the lack of range on the existing K class cruises these ships would have been most welcome to the kriegsmarine. If they could have built them earlier then during the battle of the river platte, one of these cruisers accompanying the Graph Spee could have made a decisive victory for the Germans. Or as a third ship with Prince Eugan and Bismarck. They wouldn't have been been able to fight against Battleships however they could have provided extra AA against air strikes, and could have helped the Prince Eugan engage the Norfolk and Suffolk in the Denmark strait early on so they couldn't shadow Bismarck.


Nice pictures.

Not so sure about your proposed tactical applications, as it would mean a revision of KM fleet orders, which could only come about with a much more substantial surface fleet - implying full completion of the Z Plan, which would have violated the relevant treaties.
The risk to the KM with your proposed tactics is that they could easily backfire, particulary with the Rheinubung breakout. Also the supply ship train facilities for these vessels would need to be greater.

Looking at tactical applications for early WW2, it would have been feasible for an M classe cruiser to accompany Scheer for the convoy attack in November 1940, to help catch the scattering merchant ships and perhaps also in Operation Berlin if Lutjens had engaged escorting convoy battleships. But here there is a risk because destroyers and cruisers would be engaged.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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RF
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Re: KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby RF » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:01 pm

Haratio Fales wrote: These ships would have also been welcome when the Tirpitz and Scheer were attacking convoys with Hipper and destroyers in the North sea theater as the British always seemed to have been able to get the German destroyers alone with bigger ships.


I'm not sure which North Sea convoys you are referring to, the only ones I can think of were during the Norway campaign of May/June 1940 when Tirpitz hadn't been commissioned and Scheer was in dockyard refit while Hipper got rammed by Glowworm. Did you mean the Arctic convoys? Here the KM had the Narvik and Elbing classe destroyers whose performance wasn't up to what Raeder would have liked; but that was partly due also to rough seas and incliment weather conditions, not to mention the long Arctic nights.

I am not arguing that these ships would have turned the tide of the war, but they could have extended the effect of tying up the British fleet and could have changed the outcome of some of the engagements.


I think that is difficult to judge.
Like if Sharnhorst could have escaped the night that she sank, it would have been one more capital ship to stick in the side of Briton and keep major units in certain areas just encase she showed up. A light cruiser of this type could have been the accompanying factor that allowed Scharnhorst's escape.

There were five Narviks accompanying Scharnhorst, which Bey had ordered to fan out to find the convoy he was searching for. Would an M classe have made that much more differece? Or, perhaps more likely, it would have gone down with Scharnhorst?
What I find most significant about the North Cape battle, given Scharnhorsts' history, is that there was no Gneisenau to give support.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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RF
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Re: KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby RF » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:08 pm

I see also the pictures for the Gato class sub.

It would have been interesting if the KM had got hold of blueprints for this sub around 1940 and built some, as I think they would have performed better than the subs the Germans did have during the crucial years of 1943 onwards. It would interesting to see how some of the U-boat aces would have performed with them.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

Haratio Fales
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Re: KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby Haratio Fales » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:24 am

Ty all for the imput, and yes I was refering to the artic convoys, and I know this is all conjucture, as they didn't build any of the ships. With the Sharnhorst one of these cruisers would have most likely been sunk with her, or ran with the destroyers and who knows how that would have ended up. I just think it would have been interesting if they would have built 2 or even 1 of them how it might have changed things any at all. I do agree that they would have had to have more logistics to support them. The problems that the Germans seemed to always have with the Navy thing was the numbers in the fleet and the area of operation that they were trying to cover.

Greece and Rome both built up big empires through military and politcal means but this was in a time when it was mostly on land and took many years. Napoleon and Hitler both thought they could do it in a decade and engaged everybody at the same time. The Germans probably would have been better off building more subs to start with but its like everything else in not knowing at the time and not knowing that the age of the Battleships was going to be over and the Carriers were going to take over. Look at how Russia did not really subscribe to that though. they only tried to do the carrier thing in the last two decades. I was stationed aboard 3 while I was in the Navy and still don't know If I was a part of the most dominant Sea Weapon in history, or the biggest Target, or both.

I am interested in the History of WW2 and the kreigsmarine amd the Philosophy of their ship design at the time. Ty for bouncing me your thoughts as I build this model. It is very insightful.

Haratio Fales
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Re: KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby Haratio Fales » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:36 am

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gluing in filler plywood.
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As for the Gato in the picture, I plan to build it as a side hobby. They were probably one of the most succesfull designs of the war, and or because we could out build the rest of the world at the time. I am surprised that the Germans didn't come up with something similar after building the VII class. It is like a small Gato with 4 forward tubes and 2 aft. It wouldn't have taken allot of imagination to enlarge the boat to carry 6 tubes forward and 4 aft which would also extend the range slightly and basically been a German Gato class. I think they were aiming at the bigger subs that were way more technical like the Type 9's but even if they would have built more 7's early on it could have seriously prolonged things.

Anyway back to the project, here are some updates on that.

Haratio Fales
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Re: KMS Munich 1940 1/72 scale

Postby Haratio Fales » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:47 am

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adding bondo
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with bondo
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I used a whole bottle of Glue and it hit me that screws were quicker and just as fixed. One thing I didn't like about this design is the turrets and magazines were to close together. One turret hit could have halved the armerment onboard.


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