Hi all!
I'm modelling the Lützow using the Heller kit and I'd like to know whatwas the light AA armament of the LÜTZOW and the location of the gun mounts in late 1944, 1945.
According to Monografie Morskie #7, the Lützow had in 1944 6 40mm guns (6x1) and 26 20mm guns (3x4; 6x2; 2x1). By 1945, 4 37mm guns were added (2x2) on the bridge plus 2 20mm single guns on the searchlight platform.
But according to Ospreys 'German Pocket Battleships 1939-45', the Lützow ended the war with 6 40mm, 8 37mm and 33 20mm.
Who is correct or are they both incorrect? Anyone knows?
Lützow light AA in late 1944, 1945
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Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3799
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Lutzow A/A configuration
Ciao,
here in you can find your informations.
http://kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=464
Ciao Antonio
here in you can find your informations.
http://kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=464
Ciao Antonio
Ciao Antonio
I checked my sources, I know where the anchors were.
On the AA business, I've just received another reply in another forum, you can check it here
http://www.bismarck-class-forum.dk/thre ... dd5aea76c4
According to Mon. Morskie (MM) #9, on the 26 April was dismantled 4 4cm, 2 3.7cm, 1x4 2cm and 2 2cm singles, which means that the Bofors where still installed in 1945.
Moreover, in MM #7, page 48, there's a segment about the AA guns in 1940 when the 88mm where replaced by 105mm, which roughly translated says:
In relation to the 3.7cm guns, that would mean that from 1940 to 1945 the Lützow had only 2x2 on the aft superstructure, but all plans I've seen, including the ones in MM(!), show the 2x2 mounts on the bridge.
Probably they were always there and the first part of the text is wrong or they were installed in 1941 or 1942 (6th or 7th modification).
That could also mean that the 3.7cm guns installed in 1945 were not 2x2 but only 1 double, bringing the total to 10 (5x2). In that case, were was that mount located?
As for the 2cm guns, where was P5 - 2 single guns beyond turret “B”? The 2 added in 1945 around the chymney would bring the total to 28, which is what you said the Lützow had in 1945.
I'll try to post a plan with the probable location of the mounts later on.
I checked my sources, I know where the anchors were.
On the AA business, I've just received another reply in another forum, you can check it here
http://www.bismarck-class-forum.dk/thre ... dd5aea76c4
According to Mon. Morskie (MM) #9, on the 26 April was dismantled 4 4cm, 2 3.7cm, 1x4 2cm and 2 2cm singles, which means that the Bofors where still installed in 1945.
Moreover, in MM #7, page 48, there's a segment about the AA guns in 1940 when the 88mm where replaced by 105mm, which roughly translated says:
At least two questions arrise:Also disassembled were two 37cm from the command bridge deck, increasing instead the amount of single 2cm to 10, assembling two single guns on the bow and the stern.
Within rearmament of the ship the AA armament in 1944 mounted 6 single 40 mm Bofors. Installed in the main deck in each shipside (2 stations), and the remaining 4 on the top platform of the main mast. Increasing to 26 the number of 20 mm guns, so was fitted with 12 20 mm guns in quadruple mounts (3 x IV), 12 20 mm guns in shielded double mounts (6 x II) and 2 20 mm single unshielded guns. They were located in the following mode:
In 1945 was fitted again the two double 37 mm guns on the command bridge and the two single 20 mm guns on the chimney platform.
- P1 - 1 double gun bow of the ship, at the space between the bows and anchors; with symmetry (i.e. located on the longitudinal axis)
P2 - 2 double guns fore on each shipside at the level of the capstan;
P3 - 1 quadruple gun on top turret “A";
P4 - 2 quadruple gun after on shipside at the level of the ‘end break beam’(?);
P5 - 2 single guns beyond turret “B”;
P6 - 2 double guns on the stern deck on each shipside after torpedo launcher
P7 - 1 double gun on the stern of the ship located on the longitudinal axis.
In relation to the 3.7cm guns, that would mean that from 1940 to 1945 the Lützow had only 2x2 on the aft superstructure, but all plans I've seen, including the ones in MM(!), show the 2x2 mounts on the bridge.
Probably they were always there and the first part of the text is wrong or they were installed in 1941 or 1942 (6th or 7th modification).
That could also mean that the 3.7cm guns installed in 1945 were not 2x2 but only 1 double, bringing the total to 10 (5x2). In that case, were was that mount located?
As for the 2cm guns, where was P5 - 2 single guns beyond turret “B”? The 2 added in 1945 around the chymney would bring the total to 28, which is what you said the Lützow had in 1945.
I'll try to post a plan with the probable location of the mounts later on.
-
Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3799
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Lutzow
Ciao Softsea and all,
ok, I see you are carefully analyzing the Lutzow last years.
YES, she had the air recognition swastikas, like Scheer and Prinz Eugen on last years on the baltic area.
My 2 models can help you to find were they were and how they looked like :
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Anchors were always the same on same places.
Moving on the drawings layout and the A/A installations I do not trust usually any source as I found so many mistakes all over, so I go for the original photo analysis as much as I can.
My reference is the E. Groner book ( German ships bible to me ) than I just control visually on photos.
For Lutzow the Prager book is fundamental as well.
What you are trying now to perfectly realize was subject to several modifications as happened on all KM warships ( Prinz Eugen , Tirpitz, Scheer, Hipper etc etc ) especially on late war years 1944 and 1945.
But for Lutzow the photo's are very few
.
Ok lets share the infos we have
.
The 1945 configuration with 10 by 37 mm and 28 by 20 mm sound very strange to me and that can only be justified by shortage on A/A ammunitions as the 40 mm bofors was theh best A/A gun on that time and going back to the 37 mm twin is not logic to me, but as been written that way.
We should find teh original Lutzow war diary and maybe in there we could find more infos one day.
But lets see the 1944 one :
6 by 40 mm bofors on single mount
4 by 37 mm on twin mount
26 by 20 mm of which 5 vierlings (5x4=20) and 6 singles 20+6=26
and were they were located; it is presumed as there is no official documentation available as I know.
the 2 twin ( 2x2=4 ) 37 mm guns you got it right with your green spots under the aft rangefinder ( a clear photo showing them is available ).
the 6 singles 20 mm were located 4 on the main tower top platform and 2 on the funnel platform ahead.
the 5 vierlings were located : one on top A turret ( your P3); 2 on the boat deck between the aft rangefinder and the boats; and 2 on the main deck between the boats and the B turret, just parallel to the aft 105 mm gun aft ( your P4).
For all those vierlings clear photos are available.
the 6 by 40 mm bofors are the most critical ( very distant photos and no schemes ) but they should be placed one on the bow ( your P1); one on the stern ( your P7) ; 2 on the forward ahead of A turret ( your P2); and last 2 were originally there were 2 by 37 mm on the upperworks ahead were you placed 2 green spots on your drawing.
I have personally never seen any evidence of A/A guns on Lutzow on the positions you called P5 ( I do for Adm Scheer there ).
For the P6, it was only for the 20 mm single's ( but before 1944 ) as it seems to me there was not enough room for a Bofors 40 mm there.
But you know with those ships 'never say never', you always learn and fail.
Hope having helped you but lets talk about it.
Ciao and have fun, enjoy the modeling. Antonio
ok, I see you are carefully analyzing the Lutzow last years.
YES, she had the air recognition swastikas, like Scheer and Prinz Eugen on last years on the baltic area.
My 2 models can help you to find were they were and how they looked like :
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Anchors were always the same on same places.
Moving on the drawings layout and the A/A installations I do not trust usually any source as I found so many mistakes all over, so I go for the original photo analysis as much as I can.
My reference is the E. Groner book ( German ships bible to me ) than I just control visually on photos.
For Lutzow the Prager book is fundamental as well.
What you are trying now to perfectly realize was subject to several modifications as happened on all KM warships ( Prinz Eugen , Tirpitz, Scheer, Hipper etc etc ) especially on late war years 1944 and 1945.
But for Lutzow the photo's are very few
.Ok lets share the infos we have
.The 1945 configuration with 10 by 37 mm and 28 by 20 mm sound very strange to me and that can only be justified by shortage on A/A ammunitions as the 40 mm bofors was theh best A/A gun on that time and going back to the 37 mm twin is not logic to me, but as been written that way.
We should find teh original Lutzow war diary and maybe in there we could find more infos one day.
But lets see the 1944 one :
6 by 40 mm bofors on single mount
4 by 37 mm on twin mount
26 by 20 mm of which 5 vierlings (5x4=20) and 6 singles 20+6=26
and were they were located; it is presumed as there is no official documentation available as I know.
the 2 twin ( 2x2=4 ) 37 mm guns you got it right with your green spots under the aft rangefinder ( a clear photo showing them is available ).
the 6 singles 20 mm were located 4 on the main tower top platform and 2 on the funnel platform ahead.
the 5 vierlings were located : one on top A turret ( your P3); 2 on the boat deck between the aft rangefinder and the boats; and 2 on the main deck between the boats and the B turret, just parallel to the aft 105 mm gun aft ( your P4).
For all those vierlings clear photos are available.
the 6 by 40 mm bofors are the most critical ( very distant photos and no schemes ) but they should be placed one on the bow ( your P1); one on the stern ( your P7) ; 2 on the forward ahead of A turret ( your P2); and last 2 were originally there were 2 by 37 mm on the upperworks ahead were you placed 2 green spots on your drawing.
I have personally never seen any evidence of A/A guns on Lutzow on the positions you called P5 ( I do for Adm Scheer there ).
For the P6, it was only for the 20 mm single's ( but before 1944 ) as it seems to me there was not enough room for a Bofors 40 mm there.
But you know with those ships 'never say never', you always learn and fail.
Hope having helped you but lets talk about it.
Ciao and have fun, enjoy the modeling. Antonio
Ciao Antonio
I agree with you that the 1945 configuration with no 4cm Bofors and 10 3.7cm guns seems strange, but I mentioned it because according TO YOUR SHIPS HISTORY of Lützow in the other topic, that was the AA configuration in 1945. MM#7 states that the Bofors were there in 1945 and were only removed on the 26th of April that year.
As to P5, the position is just a mere interpretation of MM#7 which states:
I also agree with you that there was probably no room for Bofors on the main mast platform, but again I was just following my main source (MM#7 - Page 48).
You probably have that book and many others, so I consider you the EXPERTEN on the subject.
Are the places you mention correct in the following plan:
Right now my problem is that I already remade the funnel platform as the smaller type (as in 1945 with only 2 searchlights).
My question is when was that platform shortened and the number of searchlights reduced to 3?
If that kind of platform existed in 1944, I'll probably model the Lützow with the AA armament that you indicated above. If not, I'll either scratch build the larger platform and do the ship in 1944 or I'll have to research a bit further to know the 'correct' AA armament in 1945.
Two more questions for the time being:
Is the following profile (the last one on the bottom) by Manuel P. González López correct:
http://www.u-modelismo.com/documentos/p ... eutsch.gif
and
When was this picture taken?
I agree with you that the 1945 configuration with no 4cm Bofors and 10 3.7cm guns seems strange, but I mentioned it because according TO YOUR SHIPS HISTORY of Lützow in the other topic, that was the AA configuration in 1945. MM#7 states that the Bofors were there in 1945 and were only removed on the 26th of April that year.
As to P5, the position is just a mere interpretation of MM#7 which states:
I also find it very hard to believe, since I've never seen any plans or photos of the Lützow with any guns there.2 pojedyncze dziala (PB i LB) za wieza "B"; - 2 single guns (Right side & Left side) beyond turret “B”;
I also agree with you that there was probably no room for Bofors on the main mast platform, but again I was just following my main source (MM#7 - Page 48).
You probably have that book and many others, so I consider you the EXPERTEN on the subject.
Are the places you mention correct in the following plan:
Right now my problem is that I already remade the funnel platform as the smaller type (as in 1945 with only 2 searchlights).
My question is when was that platform shortened and the number of searchlights reduced to 3?
If that kind of platform existed in 1944, I'll probably model the Lützow with the AA armament that you indicated above. If not, I'll either scratch build the larger platform and do the ship in 1944 or I'll have to research a bit further to know the 'correct' AA armament in 1945.
Two more questions for the time being:
Is the following profile (the last one on the bottom) by Manuel P. González López correct:
http://www.u-modelismo.com/documentos/p ... eutsch.gif
and
When was this picture taken?
-
Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3799
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Lutzow A/A guns
Ciao Softsea and all,
YES, that 1945 configuration I have placed on my plan is written based on several sources but I personally doubt that was only a plan and never really executed.
Probably you know that the older twin 37 mm guns had been al changed with the most effective 40 mm Bofors, but that was not the only A/A ‘’ new ‘’ gun available made by Bofors on Sweden license.
There was a German Mauser 37 mm single new one very similar that was used by Werhmacht but never as I know on KM major warships; some had been installed on U –Boote so I think that was probably the plan for Lutzow on 1945; new Mauser single 37 mm.
Please remember always that at that point Prinz Eugen Adm Hipper, Adm Scheer and Lutzow were reduced as training ships for KM cadets, so the intention was to have as much larger type of A/A guns available for training purposes.
I have all the Morskie-AJ Press books (highly reccomended) but there are many things on them I do not agree with.
They are doing a wonderful job but with those ships it is very easy to fail for everybody .
Photos of MM9 (Adm Scheer) on page 28 are clear about some confusion between the Adm Scheer and Lutzow on 1944 photos they are proposing.
But they do have such a wonderful photos archive and so many good drawings maker, ...... that I will always buy ther books
YES, your plan now reflects perfectly what I thought they were based on numbers I have found on several sources.
Still there is one thing that do not fully convince me, the fact that out of 4 twin 37 mm old guns they only changed 2 and not the whole 4: it does not make much sense to me.
In my real personal opinion probably that was a typo on writing the number (4 guns instead of 4 twin sets of guns so 8 guns) and that mistake after have been always carried out on many sources (happened on many other ships too) so I suspect that the 4 twin sets of 37 mm always remained there and that the 2 by 40 mm Bofors on that area were installed on the main deck, just were before there was a set of 3 single 20 mm aside the main forward upperworks, one each side (as showed on many Lutzow plans too), so just were you placed them on your previous plan.
If I was in your shoes, I will make my model on this last version, with 8 so 4 twin sets of 37 mm old guns and by the way this is exactly the version of A/A gun installations showed on Koop/Schmolke book drawing of late 1944-45 (I can send you the drawing if you do not have it).
I cannot help you much on the exact date of the funnel platform works, because on 1944 and 45 very few distant photos are available, I suspect this happened on early 1945, on the last series of works.
On many 1944 photos Lutzow still has 4 funnel platform searchlights.
Consequently I think that the photo you are proposing me is a 1945 one after the above works (only 2 searchlights on the funnel platform) and the protection on the funnel platform ahead clearly visible.
You can notice many rafts on the ship as she was helping the Hela peninsula evacuation of German citizens, so need of many rafts for precautions.
Notice the sailors aside the main forward upperwork on main deck, exactly were the 40 mm Bofors we talked before should be, that seems a confirmation as well, otherwise nobody was going to be there while sailing.
The drawing you are asking me to evaluate is consequently not perfect as far as the A/A configuration.
It shows Lutzow on 1945, and there are not the A/A guns we talked about, but a mix of singles, vierlings and Bofors not exactly positioned as we are discussing.
Assuming as we said that most likely nothing changed on 1945, the configuration should be the same of 1944 and so now you know were the guns probably were located.
So you can leave the funnel platform you made, make it early 1945 and with the A/A configuration we just realized, that should be correct, just add many rafts,... normally they were painted yellow,.. .
Happy modeling .......
Ciao Antonio
YES, that 1945 configuration I have placed on my plan is written based on several sources but I personally doubt that was only a plan and never really executed.
Probably you know that the older twin 37 mm guns had been al changed with the most effective 40 mm Bofors, but that was not the only A/A ‘’ new ‘’ gun available made by Bofors on Sweden license.
There was a German Mauser 37 mm single new one very similar that was used by Werhmacht but never as I know on KM major warships; some had been installed on U –Boote so I think that was probably the plan for Lutzow on 1945; new Mauser single 37 mm.
Please remember always that at that point Prinz Eugen Adm Hipper, Adm Scheer and Lutzow were reduced as training ships for KM cadets, so the intention was to have as much larger type of A/A guns available for training purposes.
I have all the Morskie-AJ Press books (highly reccomended)
but there are many things on them I do not agree with. They are doing a wonderful job but with those ships it is very easy to fail for everybody
. Photos of MM9 (Adm Scheer) on page 28 are clear about some confusion between the Adm Scheer and Lutzow on 1944 photos they are proposing.
But they do have such a wonderful photos archive and so many good drawings maker, ...... that I will always buy ther books
YES, your plan now reflects perfectly what I thought they were based on numbers I have found on several sources.
Still there is one thing that do not fully convince me, the fact that out of 4 twin 37 mm old guns they only changed 2 and not the whole 4: it does not make much sense to me.
In my real personal opinion probably that was a typo on writing the number (4 guns instead of 4 twin sets of guns so 8 guns) and that mistake after have been always carried out on many sources (happened on many other ships too) so I suspect that the 4 twin sets of 37 mm always remained there and that the 2 by 40 mm Bofors on that area were installed on the main deck, just were before there was a set of 3 single 20 mm aside the main forward upperworks, one each side (as showed on many Lutzow plans too), so just were you placed them on your previous plan.
If I was in your shoes, I will make my model on this last version, with 8 so 4 twin sets of 37 mm old guns and by the way this is exactly the version of A/A gun installations showed on Koop/Schmolke book drawing of late 1944-45 (I can send you the drawing if you do not have it).
I cannot help you much on the exact date of the funnel platform works, because on 1944 and 45 very few distant photos are available, I suspect this happened on early 1945, on the last series of works.
On many 1944 photos Lutzow still has 4 funnel platform searchlights.
Consequently I think that the photo you are proposing me is a 1945 one after the above works (only 2 searchlights on the funnel platform) and the protection on the funnel platform ahead clearly visible.
You can notice many rafts on the ship as she was helping the Hela peninsula evacuation of German citizens, so need of many rafts for precautions.
Notice the sailors aside the main forward upperwork on main deck, exactly were the 40 mm Bofors we talked before should be, that seems a confirmation as well, otherwise nobody was going to be there while sailing.
The drawing you are asking me to evaluate is consequently not perfect as far as the A/A configuration.
It shows Lutzow on 1945, and there are not the A/A guns we talked about, but a mix of singles, vierlings and Bofors not exactly positioned as we are discussing.
Assuming as we said that most likely nothing changed on 1945, the configuration should be the same of 1944 and so now you know were the guns probably were located.
So you can leave the funnel platform you made, make it early 1945 and with the A/A configuration we just realized, that should be correct, just add many rafts,... normally they were painted yellow,..
. Happy modeling .......
Ciao Antonio
Ciao Antonio
Thanks for your help.
Based on MM#7, page 37, 38, the short funnel platform was probably installed during the 1943/44 works at Libau (when the FuMB4 was removed), so I'm free to model the ship in those two final years.
As for the Koop/Schmolke book, if you're talking about 'Vom Original Zum Modell', I expect to receive it next Monday or Thursday. I ordered it last week from Germany. But you can send me the 1944/45 drawing anyway.
I'll probably model the ship in 1944, using as a reference the following picture
It wil probably have 8 3.7cm guns, includin 2x2 on the bridge (they appear on every drawings I've seen) and a Bofors on the main deck (red mark on the picture) plus the 26 2cm that you pointed.
One more thing, do you know if the catapult structure was strenghtened or even modified (to a block instead of a trusswork) when the Arado replaced the Heinkel?
Thanks for your help.
Based on MM#7, page 37, 38, the short funnel platform was probably installed during the 1943/44 works at Libau (when the FuMB4 was removed), so I'm free to model the ship in those two final years.
As for the Koop/Schmolke book, if you're talking about 'Vom Original Zum Modell', I expect to receive it next Monday or Thursday. I ordered it last week from Germany. But you can send me the 1944/45 drawing anyway.
I'll probably model the ship in 1944, using as a reference the following picture
It wil probably have 8 3.7cm guns, includin 2x2 on the bridge (they appear on every drawings I've seen) and a Bofors on the main deck (red mark on the picture) plus the 26 2cm that you pointed.
One more thing, do you know if the catapult structure was strenghtened or even modified (to a block instead of a trusswork) when the Arado replaced the Heinkel?
-
Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3799
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Lutzow
Ciao Softsea and all,
NO, not Koop/Schmolke book 'Vom Original Zum Modell', but their book about ''Panzerschiffe of the Deutschland class'' on page 17, the top view.
Same drawing is not on the book you are going to receive even if authors are the same.
But you are a lucky guy and I know how to show it to you in Spanish as well, they still called it Deutschland but they are talking Lutzow, so that drawing is here in :
http://www.europa1939.com/kriegsmarine/ ... hland.html
Send me your e-mail privately and I will be sending you another couple of good Lutzow drawings .
I see your references about the funnel platform, but I doubt that info.
Lutzow came back from Norway on late 1943 ( see my plans ) and was not operative again till June 1944.
There are many photos after that period on Baltic sea, so on 1944 and surely after June, were Lutzow is painted dark grey and still has the 4 searchlights.
It can be that the work on the funnel was done still on 1944, but more likely on the early 1945 works.
Anyway, make your selection and do it the way you think is better .
YES, also to me the 8 by 37 mm and the 26 by 20 mm is the correct solution I was going to use as well .
No, I have no infos about the catapult been changed when they substituted the Heinkel with the Arado 196, never heard about that
.
Ciao Antonio
NO, not Koop/Schmolke book 'Vom Original Zum Modell', but their book about ''Panzerschiffe of the Deutschland class'' on page 17, the top view.
Same drawing is not on the book you are going to receive even if authors are the same.
But you are a lucky guy and I know how to show it to you in Spanish as well, they still called it Deutschland but they are talking Lutzow, so that drawing is here in :
http://www.europa1939.com/kriegsmarine/ ... hland.html
Send me your e-mail privately and I will be sending you another couple of good Lutzow drawings
. I see your references about the funnel platform, but I doubt that info.
Lutzow came back from Norway on late 1943 ( see my plans ) and was not operative again till June 1944.
There are many photos after that period on Baltic sea, so on 1944 and surely after June, were Lutzow is painted dark grey and still has the 4 searchlights.
It can be that the work on the funnel was done still on 1944, but more likely on the early 1945 works.
Anyway, make your selection and do it the way you think is better
.YES, also to me the 8 by 37 mm and the 26 by 20 mm is the correct solution I was going to use as well
.No, I have no infos about the catapult been changed when they substituted the Heinkel with the Arado 196, never heard about that
.Ciao Antonio
Hi Antonio
Have just sent a private email to you, hope you get it.
As for the funnel platform being shortened in 1943/44 or 1944/45 it is a bit indiferent to me, since I don't want to model the ship in a particular date but with a particular look
Now what I've got to discover is the rest of the ships configuration:
Superstructure details, colours, light AA, etc...
As for pictures in 1944 with dark grey camouflage and 4 searchlights, I've never seen any photo (not without the FuMB4 which was removed in the 1943/44 works), but I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that I don't know... and when I don't know I ask.
As for the catapult I didn't mean the catapult itself, but the base. In MM#7, page 17 the trusswork is clearly visible. Did they change it to a more solid structure, as in the Scheer and Graf Spee?
Have just sent a private email to you, hope you get it.
As for the funnel platform being shortened in 1943/44 or 1944/45 it is a bit indiferent to me, since I don't want to model the ship in a particular date but with a particular look
Now what I've got to discover is the rest of the ships configuration:
Superstructure details, colours, light AA, etc...
As for pictures in 1944 with dark grey camouflage and 4 searchlights, I've never seen any photo (not without the FuMB4 which was removed in the 1943/44 works), but I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that I don't know... and when I don't know I ask.
As for the catapult I didn't mean the catapult itself, but the base. In MM#7, page 17 the trusswork is clearly visible. Did they change it to a more solid structure, as in the Scheer and Graf Spee?
Olá Antonio
Just saw the drawing that you mentioned, I already had it in my PC, taken from the web.
Two things are strange:
I can only see 3 vierlings, one in turret "A" and two aft (see image 1 bellow). Where are the other two you talked about and what are those things (guns?) in the red circle?
The other thing is the funnel platform. I modeled it according to MM #7 which is even smaller then the one in the drawing (like the blue line bellow).
If you look at the picture that I showed on an earlier post (MM#7 page 39), the shadow of the platforms protection is similar to the one on the funnel which could indicate that it was rounded and not almost square as in the drawing.
Maybe that picture of the sunken ship taken from the bow could reveal the correct shape, but I don't have it in a large scale.
Grazie
João
Just saw the drawing that you mentioned, I already had it in my PC, taken from the web.
Two things are strange:
I can only see 3 vierlings, one in turret "A" and two aft (see image 1 bellow). Where are the other two you talked about and what are those things (guns?) in the red circle?
The other thing is the funnel platform. I modeled it according to MM #7 which is even smaller then the one in the drawing (like the blue line bellow).
If you look at the picture that I showed on an earlier post (MM#7 page 39), the shadow of the platforms protection is similar to the one on the funnel which could indicate that it was rounded and not almost square as in the drawing.
Maybe that picture of the sunken ship taken from the bow could reveal the correct shape, but I don't have it in a large scale.
Grazie
João
-
Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3799
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Lutzow on 1944
Ciao Joao and all,
OK, got your e-mail and material is on the way to you .
Make the model the way you like it better, that is the fun of modeling.
For any help you need feel free to ask
I suppose that catapult base always remained the same on Deutschland/Lutzow, if I find new infos I will let you know.
I am sending you some more 1944 photos so you can check now.
Ok on the photo I have sent to you you can see how under that aft rangefinder you circled in red the 2 by 37 mm guns were located on 2 round platforms added.
Than on same photo you can see the 4 vierlings on the same area very well.
I am sure as soon as you receive the photo everything will be clear and you can post the photo here in as well if you like it to, for everybody benefit
YES, you did correctly round the funnel platform ahead, that is what they did.
The 2 searchlights removed needed a lot of space, but it was not necessary for the single 20 mm guns.
I am sure you have noticed the protection they added ahead
The 2 photos of the sunk Lutzow in Swinemunde are on the way to you as well, so you can see it.
I can send you all the other details you need, if I have them as I can scan all the photos in the details you may need from my books collection.
Very good are some photos on Navires & Historie Nr 31 and 32 on a Lutzow dedicated article by my friend Philippe Caresse.
Ciao Antonio
OK, got your e-mail and material is on the way to you
. Make the model the way you like it better, that is the fun of modeling.
For any help you need feel free to ask
I suppose that catapult base always remained the same on Deutschland/Lutzow, if I find new infos I will let you know.
I am sending you some more 1944 photos so you can check now.
Ok on the photo I have sent to you you can see how under that aft rangefinder you circled in red the 2 by 37 mm guns were located on 2 round platforms added.
Than on same photo you can see the 4 vierlings on the same area very well.
I am sure as soon as you receive the photo everything will be clear and you can post the photo here in as well if you like it to, for everybody benefit
YES, you did correctly round the funnel platform ahead, that is what they did.
The 2 searchlights removed needed a lot of space, but it was not necessary for the single 20 mm guns.
I am sure you have noticed the protection they added ahead
The 2 photos of the sunk Lutzow in Swinemunde are on the way to you as well, so you can see it.
I can send you all the other details you need, if I have them
as I can scan all the photos in the details you may need from my books collection.Very good are some photos on Navires & Historie Nr 31 and 32 on a Lutzow dedicated article by my friend Philippe Caresse.
Ciao Antonio
Thanks for the photos and the info on the book.
Bellow is the photo you sent me where the verlings are seen.
I'll probably try to post more photos as soon as I organize my site.
I still don't have a way of taking good photos, so I'm considering the idea of creating a 'text only' site for the Lützow buildup.
Bellow is the photo you sent me where the verlings are seen.
I'll probably try to post more photos as soon as I organize my site.
I still don't have a way of taking good photos, so I'm considering the idea of creating a 'text only' site for the Lützow buildup.
I've been analysing the pictures you sent me and I came to the conclusion that the reduction in the number of searchlights occurred somewhere between January-August 1944, during reconstruction in Gotenhafen and Libau.
The reason for this conclusion is that all the pictures with 4 searchlights also show FuMO22 and FuMB4, while those with 2 show only the FuMO22 (even those labelled as taken in 1944). The later radar was removed somewhere between January-August 1944, depending on the sources.
The importance to me about the shorter funnel platform and number of searchlights is that it’s a clear indication that the picture was taken after the 1943/44 reconstruction i.e. late 1944-45, exactly the period of time that I'm modelling.
I've amplified the stern of the ship in the picture that shows the 4 vierlings (see bellow) and apparently there are two single 2cm guns there and no Bofors, which could probably mean that the picture was taken prior to the above mentioned reconstruction (before 1944).
Do you know of any photo that shows those vierlings and the funnel?
Sorry for being so annoying, but I do want to model it as accurate as possible.
The reason for this conclusion is that all the pictures with 4 searchlights also show FuMO22 and FuMB4, while those with 2 show only the FuMO22 (even those labelled as taken in 1944). The later radar was removed somewhere between January-August 1944, depending on the sources.
The importance to me about the shorter funnel platform and number of searchlights is that it’s a clear indication that the picture was taken after the 1943/44 reconstruction i.e. late 1944-45, exactly the period of time that I'm modelling.
I've amplified the stern of the ship in the picture that shows the 4 vierlings (see bellow) and apparently there are two single 2cm guns there and no Bofors, which could probably mean that the picture was taken prior to the above mentioned reconstruction (before 1944).
Do you know of any photo that shows those vierlings and the funnel?
Sorry for being so annoying, but I do want to model it as accurate as possible.