Pearl Harbor capital ship casualties

From the Washington Naval Treaty to the end of the Second World War.
Tiornu
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Post by Tiornu »

I'm sure you'll find it interesting. Now I'm wanting to leaf through my copy, but it's inaccessible at the moment.
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_Derfflinger_
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Post by _Derfflinger_ »

Got it this past Friday. I was surprised it is a soft cover paperback book, but looks to be a good read.

Those guys did miracles recovering the big ships at Pearl.

Derf
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

The cruiser USS Phoenix was a casualty at Pearl Harbor. Then it was repaired and sold to Argentina and became the General Belgrano that was sunk at the naval war at Falkland (Malvinas) Islands.
Some questions:
1. Did the Phoenix was put into action in WW2?
2. When it was sold to Argentina?
3. Was it a real menace to the British during the 1982 war? After all it was a very old ship and I believe that the British new frigates could have handed her quite easily if an encounter becomes real.

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_Derfflinger_
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Post by _Derfflinger_ »

A quick check of my USN cruiser books shows the following:

USS Phoenix, CL-46, Brooklyn class, launched March 12, 1938. She was retired July 3, 1946.

She was sold to Argentina effective October 17, 1951, became Diecisiete de Octubre. Renamed General Belgrano in 1956. On May 3, 1982, she was torpedoed and sunk by HMS Conqueor.

USS Phoenix suffered minimal damage at Pearl Harbor on 12/7/41. She was at anchor alone, northeast of Ford Island, close to the hospital ship USS Solace. She immediately sailed after the attack as part of the unsuccessful effort to find the attacking IJN fleet. She spent the early part of the war in the Pacific and Indian oceans on escort duty. After a refit and a brief time in the Atlantic off North Africa, she spent the rest of the war back in the Pacific supporting several island landings and serving at Leyte and around the Philippines.

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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

I don´t think she was a menace to the British fleet in Malvinas/Falklands. Inspite of her 6" armament, far better (at least in hitting power) than the modern 5" of the British, she would surely receive a pair of missiles hits before coming into guns range, and she was not as heavily armoured as the Iowas...Besides, I have spoken to a pair of draftees that served onboard the previous year. The crew was not specially trained, and both spoke quiet low on the general maintenance and state of the ship.
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Post by Tiornu »

Phoenix's DANFS entry says she was unharmed in the Pearl Harbor raid, and she does not appear in the PH Damage Summary.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Marcelo:

I don´t think she was a menace to the British fleet in Malvinas/Falklands. Inspite of her 6" armament,
I believed she had 8" main armament, not 6" being her a cruiser.

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Post by Tiornu »

She was completed with fifteen 6in guns and eight 5in guns.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

OK. A light cruiser then...
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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

Yes, a light cruiser.
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Post by _Derfflinger_ »

Adding to what I posted above, USS Phoenix, CL-46, was a member of the famous pre-WW-2 Brooklyn class of USN light cruisers. She was roughly 10,000 tons displacement, four shafts, 100,000 SHP, 32.5 knots, carried fifteen 6-inch/47 rapid fire guns for her main armament, and eight 5-inch/25 guns for her secondary armament. In her WW-2 configuration, she carried two catapults and four aircraft.

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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

The Phoenix, in her last role as General Belgrano, I believe, was the heaviest naval vessel the Argentina had, so it´s likely that they would look at it as their means to stop the British Battlegroup that was approaching.
But, what she could have done alone if she had only her 6" main guns, no missiles or whatever sofisticated means to approach and destroy enemy targets?
What the Argentine naval command had in mind? I believe that Argentina had a CV with jet fighters. So, maybe, the CV in team with Belgrano could have been a real menace to the British?
Or the British suspected that she had more potential than she really had?
Because, as she was, she could have been put to run when tried to approach the British surface units.
Anyway, I don´t see the need to sunk her so early, only if she was going to join the CV to try an attack...

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An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

The heaviest unit was the carrier 25 de Mayo. She carried A-4 attack aircraft. Teoretically she could also carry Super Etendards, but I am not sure if her catapults could launch such an aircraft fully loaded.
The General Belgrano was armed with Sea Cats anti-aircraft launchers besides her guns. I think that the cruiser was overrated by the British
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Post by wadinga »

All,
15 x 6" guns made a quite a mess of a few ships in the SW Pacific in WWII. Many RN frigates had but a single 4.5 gun with sophisticated but occasionally unreliable feed mechanisms and some vessels with the Task Force were completely unarmed.

Belgrano was as much a legitimate threat/target moving away from the Falklands after the Argentinian invasion, as Nagumo's ships would have been moving away from Oahu on the 7th December 1941 if USS Phoenix had been at sea and in a position to intercept.

The likelyhood is that 25 de Mayo couldn't get enough wind over her deck to launch any strike aircraft. The destruction of the Belgrano ensured the carrier stayed in port for the rest of the conflict.

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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

I don´t dispute the legality of the attack: war is war and rules are the exception. But I don´t think the cruiser could do much damage to a fleet of modern warships: they all had missiles.
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