Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

From the Washington Naval Treaty to the end of the Second World War.

softsea
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Re: Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

Post by softsea » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:24 pm

Here's another one, which is excellent: Watakan

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Re: Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

Post by lwd » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:45 pm

Karl Heidenreich wrote:For those interested in the greatest warship of all times: ...
Greatest in what sence?

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Re: Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:35 pm

lwd:
Greatest in what sence?
Not in yours in any case...
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Re: Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

Post by lwd » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:48 am

Your right. She wasn't the larges either in displacement or in length. She certainly didn't have a very illustrious career or even a very long one so that's out. So what are your criteria?

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Re: Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

Post by Lutscha » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:58 am

lwd wrote:Your right. She wasn't the larges either in displacement or in length. She certainly didn't have a very illustrious career or even a very long one so that's out. So what are your criteria?
Right, but she looked so damn cool! ;)

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Re: Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

Post by lwd » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:03 pm

Lutscha wrote: ...
Right, but she looked so damn cool! ;)
Looks are to a very large extent a matter of stickly personal opinion. That said I consider Yamato and her sister to be if not the most impressive looking BBs certainly way up there on the list. Particularly during the time they had 6" secondaries.

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Re: Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:17 pm

Yamato was the one ship that could have given any Iowa the kicking of their life, like it or not. Anyway, as a matter of popularity see the number of webpages dedicated to Yamato (and movies, books, etc.) How many their boring "potential" enemies could claim?

Anyway I was just bringing up the links for the forum users to enjoy, not to invite being attacked by the such like you...
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Re: Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

Post by Bgile » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:34 pm

I have no doubt that they were far and away the most powerful battleships every built. The only argument to the contrary I would have is the actual situation they encountered in the war ... in fact demonstrably not very good shooting at samar. Since other Japanese sometimes shot very well, I can only assume the reason was lack of gunnery practice. The other factor is radar of course.

The ships themselves were IMO without peer, and of course we have discussed that in fairly great detail.

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Re: Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:58 pm

Bgile,

Your´s as always a very understanding and open position. The fact is that we have two positions when evaluating these hypothetical scenarios:

1. Relying in the usual "historical" data in which we have ships that performed very well and other not so well. The problem here is that there are ships that never took part in any combat so we cannot know, for sure, how they were going to performed. In such a way we know for sure that Bismarck blew Hood sky high or that DoY can nail the coffin for Schanhorst. But we cannot know, for sure, Yamato or Iowa performance becuase neither of them fought straight hand against another BB. So...
2. The idea is to evaluate the ship in her technical and manufacture dimensions only, and assuming that the crew and officers both contenders (being a duel) is up to the ocassion.

In my evaluations of Bismarck vs. somebody else I always tend to see position number one because Hood´s blowing or PoW´s hammering or the rudder failure are so evident that is quite difficult to produce an equation wihout them. In Yamato´s case I don´t have that problem because the only thing we can see is the behemoth before us. And more or less with Iowa. Being that the case is fair even.

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An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Re: Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

Post by lwd » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:10 pm

Karl Heidenreich wrote:Yamato was the one ship that could have given any Iowa the kicking of their life, like it or not.
Actually when you word it this way I agree with you. Well sort of. Given luck any of the "modern" BBs had a chance of winning vs Iowa. Yamato and her sister just have far and away the best chance although come to think of it a case can be made for the late war British BBs as well.
Anyway, as a matter of popularity see the number of webpages dedicated to Yamato (and movies, books, etc.) How many their boring "potential" enemies could claim?
Not sure what popularity has to do with it. Especially given the Anime/Manga series may be more popular than the historical ship. Kind of complicates that sort of analysis. On the other hand I don't think she had any boring potential enemies either.
Anyway I was just bringing up the links for the forum users to enjoy, not to invite being attacked by the such like you...
I'm not sure I would consider my post an attack but when you post opinion as fact especially when it is questionable you can expect me to question it.
Bgile wrote:I have no doubt that they were far and away the most powerful battleships every built.
If you look at three most significant capablities of a battleship movement, firepower, and protection Yamato clearly is in first place with protection. If you don't count electronics then she's also go first place in firepower. Even if she isn't as fast as Iowa I suspect her engines are if not more powerful certainly on a par with so a pretty good case can be made for that.
The only argument to the contrary I would have is the actual situation they encountered in the war ... in fact demonstrably not very good shooting at samar. Since other Japanese sometimes shot very well, I can only assume the reason was lack of gunnery practice...
From discussions on the Japanese navy site it's clear that she had fired very few rounds prior to Samar and indeed had little sea time in the run up to it. I'm not sure her shooting was all that bad off Samar. I'd have to look at a detailed analysis. She was firing at relativly small maneuvering targets in conditions where visibility was far from the best. Any idea how many rounds she fired?

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Re: Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

Post by Bgile » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:42 pm

lwd,

I'm under the impression that Yamato didn't get any hits at Samar, but not positive. I wouldn't think CVE's would be a difficult target. About the same as Glorious.

SHP was 150,000 for Yamato and 212,000 for Iowa.

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Re: Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

Post by lwd » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:09 pm

There is some debate as to whether or not she got any hits. I think the general consensus is not. However there was considerable smoke in the area as well as the rain squals. In addition Yamato was maneuvering to avoid torpedos and was under intermittant air attack from well before she opened fire until well after she lost site of the CVE's. Furthermore she origonally ID the US carrires as CVs instead of CVE's this could have affect her range judgement on things. It may well be that she did't shoot very well but I'd have to know a lot more about it than I do to say so conclusivly. As another example of no hits (with the possible exception of a splinter or two) which I consider very good shooting look at the Iowa and New Jersey vs the Nowaki. Quite a few rounds expended, numerous straddles, but no hits. On the other hand you had a well handled, agile, fast "target" that was trying very hard not to be hit and didn't have to worry about his own fire control solution. The CVE's weren't particularly fast or agile but they had the help of smoke, torpedos, and gunfire from their escorts. Some of them may even have made fake torpedo runs after their torpedos were expended.

Part of this comes down to a general disinclination on my part to be critical of those who actually participated in battles without defintive information. I suspect Yamato's performance off Samar was not what the Japanese hoped for but I'm not sure it was unreasonably bad.

It would be nice to have a record of her salvos both rounds and timing. My impression is that she never got more than a few off at a single target for one. I think I'll see what more I can find out about this. Will report back if I find out anything interesting.

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Re: Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

Post by lwd » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:32 pm

Just looked up Yamato's TROM at:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/yamato.htm
here's the part relating to the battle off Samar and part of the Sibuyan Sea battle:
24 October 1944: The Battle of the Sibuyan Sea:
...
1026: YAMATO opens fire on enemy aircraft, using her main guns and Type 3 "sanshikidan" rounds.
1032: Attacked by two Grumman TBF "Avengers" from USS CABOT (CVL-28). No hits are scored.
1047: From this time on, lookouts on the YAMATO, MUSASHI, CHOKAI, NOSHIRO and KISHINAMI report periscope and torpedo wake sightings. Several false sightings delay the fleet reforming.
1331: YAMATO opens fire on aircraft from TG 38.3.
1350: A Curtiss SB2C "Helldiver" dive-bomber from USS ESSEX (CV-9) drops two AP bombs that damage the port bow abreast of main gun turret No. 1.
1413: Lookouts sight aircraft from ESSEX approaching. Vice Admiral Kurita's fleet orders the Force to increase speed to 22 knots.
1430: Attacked by four Grumman F6F "Hellcat" fighters and 12 SB2C dive-bombers. They drop five 1000-lb AP and seven AP bombs. The first bomb penetrates the anchor deck, demolishes the port chain locker, explodes below the waterline, blows out a side plate and holes the bow. The mess deck is wrecked. Two bombs hit turret No. 1. One blows a hole above the waterline. Another bomb penetrates through the top deck to the crews' quarters.
YAMATO ships 3, 000 tons of seawater and takes on a five-degree list to port. Damage Control counterfloods and reduces the list to one degree. YAMATO is down by the bow and maintains a 2-ft, 8-in. bow trim.

Force "A" continues on course through the Sibuyan Sea. During the day, the Force endures raids by over 250 U.S. carrier aircraft. MUSASHI is hit by numerous aircraft torpedoes, bombs and sinks in the Visayan Sea. NAGATO takes two bomb hits. HARUNA is damaged by near-misses.
...
25 October 1944: The Battle off Samar:
...
0523: YAMATO's Type 13 radar picks up enemy aircraft.
0544: Enemy carriers sighted on the horizon, hull down, bearing 60 to port, range 23 miles. They are identified as six carriers, escorted by three cruisers and two destroyers.
0545: YAMATO opens fire on enemy planes.
0558: Force A opens fire at escort carriers of "Taffy 3": USS ST. LO (CVE-63), WHITE PLAINS (CVE-66), KALININ BAY (CVE-68), FANSHAW BAY (CVE-70) (F), KITKUN BAY (CVE-71) and GAMBIER BAY (CVE-73). Carriers screened by the destroyers USS HOEL (DD-533), JOHNSTON, (DD-557), HEERMANN (DD-532), destroyer escorts USS SAMUEL B. ROBERTS (DE-413), DENNIS (DE-405), RAYMOND (DE-341) and JOHN C. BUTLER (DE-339).
Both of YAMATO's forward turrets open fire at a distance of 20 miles. Of her six forward rifles only two are initially loaded with AP shells, the remainder with Type 3s. YAMATO's F1M2 "Pete" spotter plane confirms that the first salvo is a hit. The carrier starts to smoke. Three six-gun salvos are fired on the same target, then the fire is shifted to the next carrier. It is concealed immediately by a smoke screen made by the American destroyers.
Note the range 20 miles that's 40,000 yards if we are talking nautical miles and ~34,000 if not. Probably no hits were scored with these I suspect the smoke was coovering smoke. Will see what I can do about correlating. Note that she shifts fire at this point.
0606: YAMATO continues on an easterly course, firing her 155-mm (6.1-inch) secondary guns.
0651: A charging "cruiser" emerges from behind the smoke. YAMATO engages her from a distance of more than 10 miles and scores a hit with the first salvo. The target is seen burning before it is lost sight of.
0654, destroyer HEERMANN fires three torpedoes at HARUNA. The torpedoes miss HARUNA, but head toward YAMATO whose crew spots their tracks to starboard. YAMATO turns away to port, steams northward for 10 miles until the torpedoes run out of fuel. Although the maneuver avoids the torpedoes, it puts YAMATO and the Force's commander, Vice Admiral Kurita out of the battle.
0755-0910: Force A sinks GAMBIER BAY, HOEL, ROBERTS and the JOHNSTON. Kurita orders all ships to head north, but at 1020 he reverses course southward and again heads towards Leyte Gulf.

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Re: Yamato: the greatest warship of all times

Post by Bgile » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:45 pm

From that it doesn't look like her shooting was bad at all, just that there was a lot going on which interfered with it.

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