"Graf Spee" Album

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Ulrich Rudofsky
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"Graf Spee" Album

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:58 pm

This album contains photos from various sources, some probably without permission, but it is an interesting collection of the ship and the crew of the "Graf Spee". http://bbs.ziling.com/viewthread.php?ac ... tid=816548
Ulrich

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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: "Graf Spee" Album

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:43 am

Whatever but the pictures are NICE! Very pretty sight to see Graf Spee, Hood and Resolution together. I do remember to have read that Graf Spee crew once had a soccer match against the Hood crew (the British won I do recall).

The photo of the bow of Exeter is awesome: the Graf Spee really battered bad the cruiser! It was badly damaged (not just "only a couple of holes in the bridge" as once PoW´s damage was called once).

Strange issue, anyways. The battle could have been incredible and maybe the Germans could have open the way to escape (by looking how Exter was). My father, when a child in Argentina 1939, did saw the sailors of Graf Spee in an hotel there.

Best regards,
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: "Graf Spee" Album

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:59 am

Ciao Ulrich, Karl and all,

really great material Ulrich, thanks for posting the link.

187 Graf Spee photos all in good quality and almost perfectly captioned and sequenced.

Even if the majority of this material is available especially on Spanish language published books on South America, highly reccomended for Graf Spee lovers, it is nice to have them also on the internet on the electronic format.

Just 3 things I would like to highlight, as Kpt Langsdorff was one of my heroes when I was young, .... a great man of honor.

1) Dec 13th, 1939, Graf Spee crew funeral : Kpt Langsdorff with a military salute to his dead sailors; the priest's ( 3 of them ) behind him with a nazi salute.

2) The photo of Kpt Langsdoff on December 17th, 1939 on the motor boat leaving Graf Spee with the charges ready to explode tells the whole story on how he felt on that moment, just look at his face.

3) ... last a small value add from my side, .. as the A-Anton turret showed on Dec 13th, 1939 photo is for sure NOT taken at the battle of the River plate ( wrong caption here ) as the top turret camo is wrong for that last camo scheme, just reference my Graf Spee drawings or the A-Anton turret GS photos later in Montevideo and you will realize it easily.

A really valuable link....... :wink:

Ciao Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Re: "Graf Spee" Album

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:04 pm

@Antonio
It is interesting that you and I saw the priest instantly. Also, I think that Langsdorff’s salute is in the Kaiser’s (British) military style. See Lütjens sloppy salutes (thumb position!) to Hitler.
The less-than-snappy style may mean something.
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/forum_imag ... smarck.jpg
http://www.pimpernel.myzen.co.uk/Images ... Salute.jpg
Ulrich

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José M. Rico
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Re: "Graf Spee" Album

Post by José M. Rico » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:53 pm

Question is: why should a priest or any other non-military personnel give the traditional naval/military salute?
The nazi salute on the other hand was used by everyone. So, I guess a priest would give the nazi salute or don't salute at all.

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Re: "Graf Spee" Album

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:09 pm

Often the Nazi salute was not given in silence, but was also accompanied by a loud: "Heil Hitler!" I think I never saw a priest raise his arm and say "Heil Hitler!" at a funeral wenn I was an altarboy; some were military funerals.
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Re: "Graf Spee" Album

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:54 pm

Ciao Ulrich, Jose' and all,

as far as I know usually a priest does not take any politically evident position, especially during those life important moments as a funeral is.

Since Ulrich attached other 2 photos, let me connect Graf Spee on Dec 15th, 1939 ( the GS crew funeral occurred on this date, so I have to correct the date on my previous post ) to Tirpitz on May 5th, 1941,.. and connect Kpt Langsdorff to Adm Lutjens as Ulrich did.

There was a person that was there on both occasions and saw both occurrences.
It is clearly showed on May 5th, 1941 on board Tirpitz photo, while Adm Lutjens gives the military salute to A. Hitler.

It is the guy that behind Kpt H. Netzbandt looks at Adm Lutjens with a lot of surprise evident on his face for what Adm Lutjens is doing, .. just as Otto Langmann - Uruguay German Diplomacy ( it is the guy on the other side of the priest's behind Langsdorff with the eyeglasses ) is doing to Kpt Langsdorff on Dec. 15th, 1939.

That guy as some may have realized was K.K. Rasenack, a former Graf Spee artillery officer, that after 1939 Graf Spee sad end came back to Germany and was assigned to Tirpitz, and that is why he is there on the photo on May 5th, 1941 on board Tirpitz.

We must be thankful to him and to an Argentina friend namely Guillermo R. that visited him some years ago, because he explained the whole things about those photos and also did clear up the real Admiral Graf Spee camouflage colours dilemma removing forever the green invention somebody created after the war on a model.

K.K. Rasenack was a very sharp guy and had a lot of infos as well as clear memory about Graf Spee camouflage colours and schemes.

Lucky us we had a chance to get everything before he passed away recently; R.I.P. forever.

Ciao Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: "Graf Spee" Album

Post by wadinga » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:21 am

Antonio,

Can this be the end of that Long Enduring, Endlessly Repeated Bismarck myth that Lutjens "Never used the Nazi Salute"!


You will recall this photo showing Lutjens using the Nazi salute to say farewell from the top of the gangway to the Furhrer leaving after the Gotenhafen inspection of 5th May 1941 in thread http://bismarck-class-forum.dk/thread.p ... r=0&page=2 submitted by the excellent Tommy 303

It is a great fallacy to suggest that Lutjens never used the Nazi salute, here is the clear evidence that he did. We don't why he did, perhaps he was told it would make a great picture, perhaps he was reminded it was good idea for his career or even the safety of his family was threatened. However let the myth be once and for all busted -he did use the Nazi salute. Also let us remember Lutjens' last signal from the crippled Bismarck signed off with " "Long Live the Fuerher!"

And from Lindemann's commissioning address:"Comrades, something the Führer could only predict 1 ½ years ago has now turned into reality. Already, numerous opponents have been thrown to the ground and have been destroyed by the glorious deeds of our armed forces. Only one, our archenemy, England, remains. We pledge herewith that we will do honor to the Greater Germany whose historical greatness is also embodied in the name of our ship, and that we will prove ourselves worthy of the words of our Führer and observant of his commands. This pledge we summarize with these words.
Führer command, we obey! Adolf Hitler, our Führer and supreme commander, Sieg-Heil! "
(Deutschlandlied, Horst Wessel Lied and last verse of Englandlied.)

Langsdorff may have been a different kind of officer, but for many officers throughout the entire Wehrmacht all three services the Fuhrer embodied the German State and people, and they swore allegience to him personally. We cannot pretend that they did not think like this, just because we find they had some admirable qualities as well.

These Graf Spee pictures are spectacular! Well Done Ulrich (who tranlated the lindemann speech).

All the best wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Re: "Graf Spee" Album

Post by rtwpsom2 » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:47 am

Judging by the captions, I think they just copied the images and captions from maritimequest.com

http://www.maritimequest.com/warship_di ... f_spee.htm

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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Re: "Graf Spee" Album

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:50 pm

I think you are right. These pictures are even better. Thank you for pointing this out to me. It is becoming more and more difficult on the Internet to give credit where credit is due.
Ulrich

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: "Graf Spee" Album

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:34 pm

Ciao all,

@ Wadinga,

obviously I knew very well about that photo my dear friend, .......... :wink: .... in fact I never wrote that Adm Lutjens never gave a nazi salute to A. Hitler.

...... but, ..... when the full set of photos of May 5th, 1941 A. Hitler review of Tirpitz will be published than I think you will realize what happened between the 2 photos ...... between the initial military salute and the last nazi salute by Adm Lutjens.

It is enough not to look at A. Hitler and Kpt Topp taking him ahead of the group on the ship/crew review,.... just look behind them,.. and focus on what Keitel is doing/telling Adm Lutjens and mostly, .... how Adm Lutjens face changes during the photo sequence.

In my personal opinion the discussion was not a pleasure for Adm Lutjens, .. at least this is what his face tells clearly, ... very evidently as the group moves around Tirpitz deck and the photos were taken .....

Ciao Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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RF
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Re: "Graf Spee" Album

Post by RF » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:03 pm

José M. Rico wrote:Question is: why should a priest or any other non-military personnel give the traditional naval/military salute?
The nazi salute on the other hand was used by everyone. So, I guess a priest would give the nazi salute or don't salute at all.
I don't see the need for a priest to salute at all......
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: "Graf Spee" Album

Post by RF » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:06 pm

This is an impressive set of pictures which will take quite a time to digest. Thanks Ulrich for posting them.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Re: "Graf Spee" Album

Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:13 pm

I don't see the need for a priest to salute at all......
I agree………

but I think this photo shows that the command “Sieg!” was given and that command had to be answered by all present with a raised right arm and a loud “Heil!” [Hail to Victory!]. At such an occasion, the “Sieg heil!” was repeated three times. ( It was not a “Heil Hitler!” greeting). This is also indicated by the sailors having snapped to attention.
This is why I believe that Captain Langsdorff’s salute is so remarkable. His salute seems to indicate an inner conviction and a defiance of the Third Reich. His decision to commit suicide lying on the imperial naval ensign had been made.
Ulrich

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Re: "Graf Spee" Album

Post by wadinga » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:38 pm

Antonio and all,

In the picture http://www.bismarck-class.dk/forum_imag ... smarck.jpg it seems to me Lutjens would be pretty intimidating if he had his arm stuck out over his Fuhrer's head. In the other picture, http://www.pimpernel.myzen.co.uk/Images ... Salute.jpg I have seen it argued that the naval saluter is Wilhelm Marschall!

There is a picture of Hitler and officers on the bridge of Hela where the Dictator gives the stiff arm salute and all those around do the naval one. Are none of them Nazi sympathisers?

Another shows Lutjens and his group giving the Nazi salute as Hitler turns to the gangway to leave, and they maintain it all the time until he gets to the other end.

So did Gunter have his mind changed during the visit as Antonio suspects? Maybe not.

Go to: http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/project_pr ... r%2006.pdf

for a professional's paper about Lutjen's 1935 visit as commander of Karlsruhe. Interesting excerpts include

QUOTE Two days before the ship arrived, the same newspaper carried a front-page photo
of Captain Günther Lütjens, the ship’s commander, beneath which appeared a
brief synopsis of his naval career. or

Moreover, because the German national anthem was played “on every occasion
ashore,”39 all German officers and naval cadets present gave the Nazi salute, as
they were obliged to do by regulations – a practice frequently referred to in press
accounts as well as in Donaldson’s report and no doubt the source of
bemusement and perhaps even fascination to Canadians. Donaldson spent a
considerable amount of time aboard the German vessel. He noted that
photographs of Hitler appeared throughout the ship and that, on entering the
wardroom, every officer formally saluted one. or

Lütjens and other ship’s
officers were also present. “Speaking with a heavy accent,” Lütjens thanked the
citizens of Vancouver for their “hospitality and comradeship” and expressed the
hope that peace would characterize future relations between Canada and
Germany. “The German officers who attended the luncheon added a dramatic
touch when they stood with their right arms raised during the singing of ‘God
Save the King’,” reported the Province. or

It is thought that there is a secret anti-Nazi group
in the ship.” While this is difficult to confirm, and perhaps doubtful, it is also
true that several German officers continued to wear cuff links bearing the old
imperial coat-of-arms. Topp noted that in celebrating the anniversary of the
Battle of Jutland while homeward bound in the Atlantic, “the old and our new
service flags are hoisted together, symbolizing the common attitude and spirit
that unite the former and the new Navy.”41 This might indicate shipboard
divisions as much as unity. Whatever the case, the Canadian navy hoped to
gauge the Germans’ morale and level of commitment to the Hitler regime.

So Nazi saluting was de rigeur in Lutjen's ship as early as 1935.

All the Best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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