"Graf Spee" Album

[Ulrich Rudofsky]

@wadinga

You find the best stuff! Thanks.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Wadinga, Ulrich and all,

very good material, my congratulations my friend

But something do not match to me ... and you know I am a curious guy, ...

If Adm Lutjens was so hot about nazi attitude, .. why that Military salute to A. Hitler on such an important occasion ...why not a nazi one like all the other Officers were doing .

Why Keitel did that at all to Lutjens soon after ...

On 1934 Lutjens was saved by Adm Raeder,...otherwise because of his jewish origins he was going to leave the German Navy,..and Germany at all, .. just like his brother did.

On 1935,...soon after being saved , .. he shows the attitude you listed so perfectly on a German warship, .. this do make sense,.... he was afraid to be controlled on everything he was doing probably, ....

I will check what Adm Lutjens did while inspecting the Prinz Eugen on my Op. Rheinubung film, .... just for curiosity, .... and see which salute he used on that occasion,.....

Ciao Antonio

[tommy303]

One would sometimes see both types of salute from the same person in quick sequence, as can be seen on these sequenced photos of Hitler on board the Scharnhorst to present Raeder with his Grand Admiral's baton. In the first photo, Hitler is greeting Raeder and the assembled Admirals, officers, and other ranks are giving the nazi salute, except for one who is giving the naval salute:

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f? ... d79826a7f0

The admiral in question appears to be Wilhelm Marschall, although I cannot be positive. In the next photo he holds the naval salute while Hitler presents Raeder with the baton:

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f? ... 2436a3fbfd

In the next, as Hitler apparently waves good by, the same officer, now in line with Hitler's elbow, is giving the nazi salute and Raeder, holding his new baton in the left hand may be giving a salute, though it is hard to tell from the angle:

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f? ... 515cd21794

In the last photo, as Raeder raises his baton, the officer in question, along with most of the front row, is not saluting at all:

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f? ... d7f3f7b181

[wadinga]

Ulrich, Tommy 303, Antonio et al,

Ulrich

You find the best stuff!

You are too kind- google did all the work, but I did have to wade through a hundred hits telling me how Lutjens never used the Nazi salute, just to get there. Noneof which were posted by the always well-informed Antonio

Tommy thanks for posting the Raeder baton sequence, very interesting showing just what I suspected- older naval guys with a pre 1933 career might well use the naval salute for preference, but would throw up a stiff arm when required. Embarrassing to be the odd one out, and when you are "eyes front" in the front rank , how do you tell what everybody else is doing? Maybe somebody whispered in his ear so he got it right the second time.

Antonio, do you know something special about Keitel and Lutjens?

Why Keitel did that at all to Lutjens soon after

Lutjens nearly always looks grumpy, and basically trails round behind during the tour looking miserable, whilst Lindemann tells the Fuhrer facts about his ship. I can't see anything in Lutjens' facial expression to indicate Keitel or anybody else told him off for not using the Nazi salute. Again, in the greeting picture he is surely standing within a metre of the Dictator, and a Nazi salute at that distance might be intimidating and misconstrued. Especially as a part Jew might have that old Imperial dirk slid up inside his cuff, for a swift single downward stroke that would have saved the world from a lot of additional bother.

I thought the Vancouver visit article was very interesting, in that it showed how National Socialism was a fervent "religion" in the 1930s which the Karlsruhe tour was seeking to promote, and many Canadians found unnerving and distasteful. It was noticeable how an ex-patriate German community were thinking fondly about the new resurgent Fatherland and so it doesn't surprise me that Germancivilians in Montevideo might use the Nazi salute in solidarity with Graf Spee's crew. But, as you say, Langsdorff didn't. I am sure you are right, that he was seaman first and agent of the Fascist Dictatorship second, and he saluted his fallen comrades as their Captain and not as their political commander.

You guys are the suppliers of the most excellent material - I was just lucky on the Web

All the best

wadinga

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Wadinga and all,

as I had the chance to write earlier, I saw the whole sequence of Keitel talking with Adm Lutjens on the Tirpitz May 5th, 1941 afternoon visit photo sequence, the one taken immediately after that Military salute in front of A. Hitler coming on board the Tirpitz.

Well, it is very evident that Keitel is talking a kind of ' hard ' to Adm Lutjens, as his face changes dramatically expression as they walk thru the Tirpitz.

The Nazi salute Adm Lutjens gave to A. Hitler was done after this occurrence and some time A. Hitler spent inside the Tirpitz.
In fact as you can see A. Hitler is leaving the Tirpitz on that moment.

I have looked also at Adm Lutjens review on board Prinz Eugen on May 19th, 1941 into Gotenhafen at Seebahnhof anchorage, ref. PG Rheinubung film.

Well, not one single nazi salute to anybody, and Adm Lutjens is saluting while coming on board the Prinz Eugen, than the Officers singularly, than the crew divisions on the bow and on the stern; NOT a single nazi salute, all military salute to everybody, any ranking.

I can add to this various film sequences and photos of same thing occurred on board Admiral Hipper and Gneisenau, all military salute from Adm Lutjens.

Ciao Antonio

[Ulrich Rudofsky]

Here again ADM Lütjens receives a regular navy salute from the crew of the "Admiral Hipper".




This caption is very frequently used for this photo on the Internet and I think people just copy the error. “Der Kommandant der Admiral Hipper: Kapitän zur See Hellmuth Heye (weiße Mütze)” I don’t see the white cap

[tommy303]

In the German armed forces of the time, up to July 1944, nazi or fascist salute was optional, although the normal method of salute was raising ones had to the peak of ones cap. Even so, when approached by a superior officer, one normally came to attention, but did not salute unless the superior officer gives the courtesy first. If he salutes, then one returned the salute in kind.

In the case of Hitler, one would stand at attention and on command go eyes right or left depending on the direction he was coming from. If under arms, salute was by presenting arms. It was actually up to Hitler to salute first, as he does when arriving on the State Yacht when coming out to the Bismarck. Reviewing the crew, one can see that the officers and men are exactly following military traditions of courtesy. Luetjens came aboard the Tirpitz with Hitler as part of the visiting entourage, and his famous naval salute was at close quarters, which Wadinga has pointed out would be clumsy if the nazi salute was used. In all probability, the photo was taken as Hitler was bidding farewell to the gathered officers. Luetjens, who the senior naval officer present and master of ceremonies after a fashion, would give the naval salute just prior to Hitler's farewell shaking of hands, then the Nazi salute as the dictator turns and leaves by way of the gang plank.

Exactly what Keitel Luetjens are discussing is impossible to say since neither left any kind of written or anecdotal evidence

[Ulrich Rudofsky]

Exactly what Keitel Luetjens are discussing is impossible to say since neither left any kind of written or anecdotal evidence

You are right.
The only entry about this visit in the war diary of Admiral Lütjens is: "5.5.41 0930-1700 Aviso 'Hela', Gotenhafen. Besichtigung der Schlachtschiffe "Bismarck" und "Tirpitz" durch Führer und Generalfeldmarschall Keitel. Führung durch Flottenchef." [.....inspection of the battleships Bismarck and Tirpitz by Führer and Generalfeldmarschall Keitel, conducted by Chief of Fleet]

PS: Lütjens' KTB 23.3.41-15.5.41 is available by e mail.

[Ulrich Rudofsky]

Addendum: Lütjens KTB transcription and translation is at http://kbismarck.com/archives/index.html Section 2.4.8

[rtwpsom2]

That's weird, in the states, no matter which branch, the lower ranking person salutes first and does not drop his salute until after it has been returned or acknowledged by the superior.

[wadinga]

All,
Can we nail down which ship we are on first of all? As I understand it Tirpitz was alongside and Bismarck was moored offshore.Hitler is aboard yacht Hela, salutes Lutjens and reception committee aboard his flagship Bismarck, with a Nazi salute whilst the officers around him on Hela's bridge use the naval salute.

There are pictures near the hangar and one of the twin 5.9 mounts with Lindemann leading the tour, and then Adolf has a discussion with Lutjens without Keitel etc followed by vegetarian lunch. Either at the beginning or end Lutjens has given the naval salute whilst next to an officer identified by Schmalenbach in the Warship Profile on Bismarck as Cdr Duwell, second in command of Bismarck.

Hitler is pictured at the head of the gangway with Lutjens and group giving Nazi salute which is maintained all the time until the Fuhrer reaches Hela.

Are any of the pictures aboard Tirpitz?

Also in the Bismarck KTB are the messages in which Lutjens dedicates the last fight of the Bismarck and his own life and those of his crew to the Fuhrer personally.

Sorry this has drifted off Langsdorff but it is related.

All the best

wadinga

[Ulrich Rudofsky]

Back to Langsdorff.....looking at all the other hand salutes, his is in the old style as I pointed out before. It may mean something.

PS:

lower ranking person salutes first......

. Yes. We even had to salute the general/flag officers' cars even if they were not in it......

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Wadinga,

May 5th, 1941 at Gotenhafen ( Gdynia ).

Bismarck was anchored outside the harbour and was visited in the morning.

Tirpitz was anchored inside the harbour at Seebanhof and was visited in the afternoon.

Hitler and Keitel visited both ships and Adm Lutjens was with them on both ships, on that day photo the easier way to recognize the ship you were in is the presence of Lindemann or Topp, of course aside Hitler leading the group on review.

Nothing happened on Bismarck ( in reality something happened ... but nobody knows about it ... at least not too many so far ) .......
Keitel was walking aside Adm Lutjens inspecting the Bismarck apparently friendly talking about the ship; Adm Lutjens face is very relaxed all the way thru Bismarck.

The photos we are referring to on this discussion were taken on board Tirpitz so in the afternoon, when the ' problem' happened.
Adm Lutjens received Hitler on board Tirpitz and gave him a military salute, all other officers look at him a kind of surprised ( ref. Netzbandt and Rasenack )
During the Tirpitz review, Topp takes Hitler ahead while again Keitel walked aside Adm Lutjens and now the situation becomes immediately totaly different compared to the morning on board the Bismarck.
Keitel talks very hard to him and Adm Lutjens face changes expression and he looks down at the deck while walking, very frustrated and depressed, he is not liking what Keitel is telling him.
At the end of the walk, after some time spent inside Tirpitz, Adm Lutjens gave the Nazi salute to Hitler leaving the Tirpitz and jumping into his car with Keitel.

You can collect all the photos and sequence them ,......and you will easily realize it.

Ciao Antonio

[wadinga]

Antonio et al,

Antonio, you are a tease with your "secret sources", what do you know that you're not telling?

Despite Schmalenbach's caption, Cdr Duwell was in Tirpitz, so as you say, that is where the sloppy salute picture must be.

http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/h ... r.htmlThis picture from Hela's bridge shows the Fuhrer leaving Bismarck on a short gangway with Bismarck officers right and left giving the Nazi salute. Is Lutjens one of them or is he following out of the superstructure?

As you say the Lutjens Nazi salute picture is at the end of the Tirpitz visit as Hitler leaves onto the quayside via a long gangway.

Lutjens might well look pained all day. Presumably he knows the details of the planned mission, but since Raeder has stayed away (apparently to avoid the Fuhrer finding out) he must make sure he doesn't let anything slip either.

I haven't managed to assemble the comprehensive list of photos to interpret Lutjens' mood through the day (grumpy to V Grumpy?).

I notice you haven't commented on his "Unshakable faith" and "Long Live the Fuhrer" transmissions.

All the best

wadinga

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Wadinga and all,

there are no doubts about the fact that the Military salute occurred on Tirpitz and not on Bismarck, as K.K.Rasenack was only on Tirpitz.

Same for Hitler leaving Tirpitz and Adm Lutjens with the Nazi salute, the aft upperwork of Tirpitz had different stairs layout compared to Bismarck, and that ship is Tirpitz.

Unfortunately the link is not working well, but I think I know the very famous photo you are talking about taken from the top of Hela aside Bismarck.

So I will use a different link to explain this to you my friend.

Reference this link were you have 5 photos :

http://www.maritimequest.com/warship_di ... page_6.htm

The photo we are talking about is the last one on the bottom, ..... but I am sure you have noticed also the top one, ... the first

The photo shows A. Hitler leaving Bismarck and ready to get back on board the Hela as Bismarck was outside Gotenhafen harbour on open sea and he had to take the Hela to go back into the harbour and get on board the Tirpitz.

Adm Lutjens is the only one the photo shows coming out of the door following A. Hitler, Keitel and al the others are still inside Bismarck aft upperwork.

Every Officer is giving a Nazi salute to Hitler, including Kpt Lindemann, while Adm Lutjens is NOT doing it and he seems watching Kpt Lindemann face while he does that.

I think that Adm Lutjens confidence on having a single chance to have a succesfull mission disappeared as soon as B-Dienst experts on board Bismarck told him about the HMS Suffolk radar performances on May 23rd, 1941.

The famous last message was sent while Adm Lutjens well knew about his personal final destiny, and at that point a man and an Officer of his rank only had 2 things to think about : as a man his family home, and as an Officer his ship crew and his flag honour.

On this I personally think that Adm Lutjens conduct is comparable to Kpt Langsdorff and Erwin Rommel decisions.

He and the Bismarck were not going to see another sunrise after May 27th, 1941.

Last, about the Bismarck small secret, ...... soon everybody will know about it, ..... but you have a personal message my friend .

Ciao Antonio