Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

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Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby Pr.Eugen » Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:50 pm

Greetings, all.

I have an interesting question.

Image

On the it photo ("Admiral Hipper" in dry dock after battle with "Glowworm") a visible part of an armored belt in a forward from bulge has a very big thickness (I think 120-150 mm) if to compare about 40 mm a belt in further in a fore.
All authors write that a thickness of a belt in it a place - 80 mm.

Whether there is an explanatory of this question.
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby RF » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:48 pm

Beware of the multitude of pop-ups you will get if you click on the above picture.

I'm not clear on what is being asked - the bulge isn't streamlined and it doesn't look to me to be a permanent part of the ship, as it would drag in the water and slow the ship down....
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby Jack B. » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:52 pm

Looking at pictures of Prinz Eugen, the thicker plate appears to be abreast of turret A above and below the water line. My guess is the additional armour runs from 157.6 to 167.5. Not sure the thickness of the additional armour in this area.
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby Pr.Eugen » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:32 pm

RF wrote:Beware of the multitude of pop-ups you will get if you click on the above picture.

I'm sorry. :oops:

RF wrote:I'm not clear on what is being asked - the bulge isn't streamlined and it doesn't look to me to be a permanent part of the ship, as it would drag in the water and slow the ship down....

I am interested in the thickness of armor in the area circled around (aft of the belt in 40 mm thickness)
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby Keith Enge » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:42 pm

I don't think that it is some additional thickness of armor. I can think of two possibilities. The most likely is that it is the normal armor belt which did stand out from the skin of the ship. The reason that it appears to be only a patch is that a portion of the armor belt aft of it has been removed so repairs can be made to the damage visible. The other less likely explanation is that it is a temporary caisson added in a Norwegian port to make the damage under it watertight so that the ship can complete a return to a German dockyard where permanent repairs could be made.
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby Pr.Eugen » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:31 pm

Keith Enge wrote:I don't think that it is some additional thickness of armor. I can think of two possibilities. The most likely is that it is the normal armor belt which did stand out from the skin of the ship. The reason that it appears to be only a patch is that a portion of the armor belt aft of it has been removed so repairs can be made to the damage visible. The other less likely explanation is that it is a temporary caisson added in a Norwegian port to make the damage under it watertight so that the ship can complete a return to a German dockyard where permanent repairs could be made.

No ...
This is not a temporary graving piece of the hull breach.

Look at the picture with the portside
Image

We see a similar plate of armor.
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby Jack B. » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:02 pm

To me, when looking at all the pictures, and all the info I have on the Hipper class and Prinz Eugen, I believe that the armour is 80mm belt that is extending outside the bulge to frame 167.5
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby Pr.Eugen » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:13 pm

Jack B. wrote:To me, when looking at all the pictures, and all the info I have on the Hipper class and Prinz Eugen, I believe that the armour is 80mm belt that is extending outside the bulge to frame 167.5

I also have a fairly large amount of information about the heavy cruisers of Admiral Hipper class.
And sources say about 80 mm thick of the main armor belt. :cool:

But seeing these pictures, I would not put an end to this issue.
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby Jack B. » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:23 pm

With the sloping edges to the plate it is hard to tell the exact thickness. I have pictures of Lutzow and Seydlitz and the plate is on them as well. It really is a mystery that is for sure. I wonder if the archives in Washington would have more information? The US managed to get their hands on a bunch on information on PE as well as the ship.
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby Pr.Eugen » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:46 am

Jack B. wrote:With the sloping edges to the plate it is hard to tell the exact thickness.

I have suggested that the zone thickness of 40 mm continued to aft on 153 frame (at 153 frames we see the 40-mm armor traverse in the armour diagram), and it is superimposed on the site outside the armor-plate 80-mm thick.
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby wadinga » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:41 pm

Gentlemen,

I suspect you have uncovered the lair of a legendary creature, never before sighted. :clap: :clap: :clap: :dance: :dance: :dance:


The ultra secret GHG passive sonar system, deploying 60 hydrophones per side. A seperate bulge/fitting like this on the outside of the ship, allows 60 penetrations without threatening hull integrity, just one multicore takes the wiring inboard. The bulge can have acoustic deadening material to isolate the hydrophones from hull borne noise, motors, stomping jackboots, other machinery, clicking heels etc and if there are problems, the whole fitting can be removed. etc.

The Prinz Eugen system was removed by the US authorities and redeployed on the submarine USS Flying Fish as a test bed and rumoured to be the progenitor of USN passive sonars post war.

Many lengthy threads have discussed whether this system detected Hood and PoW at over the horizon ranges (which we can't really do now from a noisy surface ship) and permitted PG to dodge every single torpedo fired at her except the one that hit and blew her stern off.

If there are any more pictures we might see the beast properly.

Anybody agree :ok:

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby Pr.Eugen » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:05 pm

Good joke ... :clap:

Hipper and Blucher had no GHG-system.
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby wadinga » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:43 am

Pr Eugen,

Glad to provide some humour for you. :wink:

OK here's another theory for you to mull over. Some kind of paravane/boat handling protection pad/fender to protect the hull plating. The boat handling booms are directly above these features and it's far too thick to be armour.

But coming back to GHG, got any pictures, drawings, details of installations, etc? Any reason why Hipper and Blucher didn't get the equipment?

All the best

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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby RNfanDan » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:31 am

It's part of a wake-damping system fitted to the starboard side of the ship. It produces the illusion of a much-reduced forward speed by altering the ship's wake foam and (night-time) phosphorescence trail astern, making the ship appear to be doing not more than about 15 knots when, in fact, it is nearly at full speed.

It was known as a Messen-Mitscherkopf diverter, and was a smashing success in the Baltic. :wink:
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Re: Armor of the Admiral Hipper class cruisers

Postby Pr.Eugen » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:16 pm

wadinga wrote:Glad to provide some humour for you. :wink:

:D

wadinga wrote:Pr Eugen,
OK here's another theory for you to mull over. Some kind of paravane/boat handling protection pad/fender to protect the hull plating. The boat handling booms are directly above these features and it's far too thick to be armour.

Unlikely...
On the other German ships do not have anything similar.
Do you think - experiment??

wadinga wrote:But coming back to GHG, got any pictures, drawings, details of installations, etc? Any reason why Hipper and Blucher didn't get the equipment?

You are right ...
I also have never seen any pictures or drawings of placement GHG-system to PG...
Blucher was not likely GHG-system due to short life.
Hipper put to S-gerat, probably with GHG was a lot of papers on the hull.
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