Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2 (al

From the Washington Naval Treaty to the end of the Second World War.
alecsandros
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Re: Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2

Post by alecsandros » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:36 pm

Paul L wrote:Lee why don't you sit back and enjoy Spain and Portugal game instead of nitpicking over nothing. My figures only relate to relation ship between shot and hits.
:ok: :ok: :ok:

lwd
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Re: Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2

Post by lwd » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:53 pm

Paul L wrote:Lee why don't you sit back and enjoy Spain and Portugal game
What game would that be? Soccer? I don't even bother with football, baseball, or baketball.
instead of nitpicking over nothing.
??? nit picking over nothing? You made a post with inaccruate information although I'm not sure how relevant it was. I don't consider that nothing.
My figures only relate to relation ship between shot and hits.
If your hit information is off then the relationship is off so your figures are bogus.

Paul L
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Re: Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2

Post by Paul L » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:43 am

The figures are accurate and thats all that matters.
"Eine mal is kein mal"

Byron Angel
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Re: Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2

Post by Byron Angel » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:53 am

It has been asserted that the vitals of YAMASHIRO were not reached by any US BB hits. That may perhaps be the case, but the fact that YAMASHIRO was only able to make 14-15 knots after her encounter with the US BBs raises the very reasonable possibility that her vitals were in fact damaged. For a ship nominally rated at 24-25 knots, a best speed of 14-15 knots implies a loss of about 80 pct of her motive power. While some of the speed loss might well have been attributable to flooding, list, and trim issues, it is very difficult to credit such factors as having been responsible for the entirety of YAMASHIRO's loss of speed.

At the end of the day, we cannot state with complete certainty either way, but the case of intact vitals is very far from conclusive IMHO.

B

alecsandros
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Re: Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2

Post by alecsandros » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:03 pm

Byron,
Yamashiro suffered 2 torpedo hits prior to the shelling coming from US battleships - 1 at the time Fuso sank, another about 20 minutes later.
Speed dropped to 18-20kts after the first hit, and down to 15kts after the second.

Regards,
Alex

lwd
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Re: Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2

Post by lwd » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:26 pm

Paul L wrote:The figures are accurate and thats all that matters.
Are they? I don't think so. They are at best questionable and misleading.

Paul L
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Re: Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2

Post by Paul L » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:56 pm

lwd wrote:
Paul L wrote:The figures are accurate and thats all that matters.
Are they? I don't think so. They are at best questionable and misleading.

If you have better documented figures of shots and hits -in this case- present them and the documentation.
"Eine mal is kein mal"

lwd
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Re: Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2

Post by lwd » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:31 pm

Paul L wrote:
lwd wrote:
Paul L wrote:The figures are accurate and thats all that matters.
Are they? I don't think so. They are at best questionable and misleading.
If you have better documented figures of shots and hits -in this case- present them and the documentation.
I already have as have others along with why a logical arguement as to why they were misleading as well as wrong.

Paul L
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Re: Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2

Post by Paul L » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:36 pm

I just reviewed the thread and you provide no figure of any shots or hits in that engagement. All my figures came from O'Haras three volumes on naval clashes during WW-II, since he is the only source that covers that many incidents and searches for such figures, probably because he understands the importance.

Without a large data base no comparison can be made in any study of human behavior and battle is the ultimate example of human behavior that has good studies in some areas. So whats critical is the exact relation ship between the number of shots and hits in any given engagement. Taken 'out of context' any particular engagement could look off but as part of the larger data base, it can becomes instructive. Approximate figures can't be included in such a data base as they may sckew the over all data base and introduce increasingly destructive 'error bar' ranges.
"Eine mal is kein mal"

lwd
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Re: Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2

Post by lwd » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:16 pm

Paul L wrote:I just reviewed the thread and you provide no figure of any shots or hits in that engagement. All my figures came from O'Haras three volumes on naval clashes during WW-II, since he is the only source that covers that many incidents and searches for such figures, probably because he understands the importance.
On the other hand Tully, who studied the battle quite extensively suggest significantly more hits. Just because he is unwilling to post a specific number hardly invalidates that. Furthermore as mentioned the hits on and by the cruisers are more than a bit misleading as I pointed out because the US and Australian cruisers were firing on the Kirishima as well as the Japanese cruisers. I also note that light cruisers were ignored (or were they?) in your post as only 8" gunfire was mentioned. Did the number of rounds fired by the light cruisers get counted into the cruiser rounds or not.
Without a large data base no comparison can be made in any study of human behavior and battle is the ultimate example of human behavior that has good studies in some areas. So whats critical is the exact relation ship between the number of shots and hits in any given engagement. Taken 'out of context' any particular engagement could look off but as part of the larger data base, it can becomes instructive. Approximate figures can't be included in such a data base as they may sckew the over all data base and introduce increasingly destructive 'error bar' ranges.
But what you have is "approximate figures" and ones that based on the latest research are most probably significantly in error.

Paul L
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Re: Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2

Post by Paul L » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:03 am

Suggesting more hits is of little use to us, if we are after a specific relationship between shot and hit we need exact figures. If you accumulate enough of them you have a data base that rises above the inevitable bias of each side over the other.
"Eine mal is kein mal"

Byron Angel
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Re: Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2

Post by Byron Angel » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:32 am

alecsandros wrote:Byron,
Yamashiro suffered 2 torpedo hits prior to the shelling coming from US battleships - 1 at the time Fuso sank, another about 20 minutes later.
Speed dropped to 18-20kts after the first hit, and down to 15kts after the second.

Regards,
Alex

..... Thanks Alex. I misplaced those torpedo hits in my mental timeline.

B

alecsandros
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Re: Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2

Post by alecsandros » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:23 pm

Yes, there were at least 4 torpedo hits in all...

lwd
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Re: Destroyers vs. battleships - Comprehensive list from WW2

Post by lwd » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:38 pm

Paul L wrote:Suggesting more hits is of little use to us, if we are after a specific relationship between shot and hit we need exact figures. If you accumulate enough of them you have a data base that rises above the inevitable bias of each side over the other.
It's of more use than an arbitrary and almost assuredly wrong specific number. Remember GIGO.

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