Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of WW2

From the Washington Naval Treaty to the end of the Second World War.
User avatar
tameraire01
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 11:56 pm

Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of WW2

Post by tameraire01 » Tue May 27, 2014 5:27 pm

Could the RN have in service Lion and/or Tameraire by 1944? Would they be sent to hunt tirpitz if she went north along with the Implacable and indefatigable carriers.
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas. Joseph Stalin

User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 3093
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of

Post by Dave Saxton » Wed May 28, 2014 2:38 pm

They probably could have built two by 1945 (1944 is probably not realistic) if they rescheduled building programs. Less convoy escort vessels, and less new destroyers, and less new carriers. less replacement merchantmen. Possibly losing the war against the U-boats during 1942.

There would also never be a Vanguard. One of the main problems was building new guns and gun mounts. That was why Vanguard was proposed; to use already available guns and turrets and with the propulsion systems of Lion given to Vanguard. Even then Vanguard didn't make it time for the war.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3966
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of

Post by dunmunro » Thu May 29, 2014 11:17 pm

As mentioned the RN could have built two Lion class if they changed their construction priorities. One way this could have happened would have been closer cooperation between Canada and the UK pre-war, so that Canada builds more escort ships sooner (and maybe more AFVs and tanks as well), thus allowing UK industry to concentrate more effort on building BBs. Theoretically, the UK could have built two Lion class by 1942, if given the needed priority.

User avatar
RNfanDan
Supporter
Posts: 424
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:06 pm
Location: USA

Re: Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of

Post by RNfanDan » Thu May 29, 2014 11:34 pm

It was Churchill who was ultimately responsible for the Lions being halted, according to at least one reliable source; so in a sense, the construction priorities WERE changed. Un-doing that change proved impossible, in the long run.
Image

User avatar
tameraire01
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 11:56 pm

Re: Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of

Post by tameraire01 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:13 pm

would Korea be different if we had a lion built by then?
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas. Joseph Stalin

User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 3093
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of

Post by Dave Saxton » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:53 pm

No, they had Vanguard and the surviving KG5s.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

User avatar
tameraire01
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 11:56 pm

Re: Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of

Post by tameraire01 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:11 pm

They went to the scrap heap in 1951 for KGV , POW sunk by the Japanese, DoY 1951, Howe 1950 and Anson 1957 scrapped. Which was a great pity. Same with the Implacable class Aircraft Carriers. Which I imagine were preferred to some of the other late WW2 aircraft carriers.
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas. Joseph Stalin

User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 3093
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of

Post by Dave Saxton » Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Ah, I didn't know they scrapped them so soon. A great pity indeed.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3966
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of

Post by dunmunro » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:30 pm

tameraire01 wrote:They went to the scrap heap in 1951 for KGV , POW sunk by the Japanese, DoY 1951, Howe 1950 and Anson 1957 scrapped. Which was a great pity. Same with the Implacable class Aircraft Carriers. Which I imagine were preferred to some of the other late WW2 aircraft carriers.
All the KGV class were scrapped in the late 1950s, mainly 1957-58.

pgollin
Senior Member
Posts: 370
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:01 pm

Re: Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of

Post by pgollin » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:13 am

.

Two 1939 Lions were (just about) laid down - then scrapped.

There was a redesigned Lion (actually a series of evolving designs which COULD have been laid down and built - especially the 1942 fully worked out one).

Post-war (1945/46) the RN looked at possible new battleships - they couldn't justify them as they didn't see a use for them having no sensible enemy. They did studies which assessed the best type to build to be, approximately, 68,000 tons, 12-inch decks and 2 x 3 Mark IV fully automatic 16-inch guns. Such ships were regarded as too big (needed much extra infrastructure), too expensive (this was "Austerity Britain" ! ) and not flexible.

User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 3093
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of

Post by Dave Saxton » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:28 pm

pgollin wrote:.

They did studies which assessed the best type to build to be, approximately, 68,000 tons, 12-inch decks and 2 x 3 Mark IV fully automatic 16-inch guns.
The 12-inch decks requirement is interesting and may have been part of the unfeasability assessment. How this could be achieved is a good question. It is not possible to manafacture homogenous plates of such thickness and retain high quality. The thickest homogenous plates should be is about 6-7-inches and ideally less thick than that to have the highest quality. Using two 6-inch decks creates a problem of the upper deck being so thick that it would cause a steeper post penetration trajectory of any projectile capable of defeating it. This in turn would cause the projectile to strike the lower deck at a more favorable striking angle.

From ADM 281, I get the impression that the British were well on their way by the 1950s to adopting a similar deck protection system to the German system on new designs. They also replaced the NCA homogenous armour with ST-61 which is essentially Wh. But even using a German type spaced array and materials, coming up with 12-inches effective is going to be a tall order.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

pgollin
Senior Member
Posts: 370
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:01 pm

Re: Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of

Post by pgollin » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:39 am

.

I cannot really add any detail other than to say that the 12-inch deck was for protection against bombs/missiles (like Uncle Tom) - NOT against shells. So what type of armour they would have used I cannot say.

The deck thicknesses for Nelsons and KGVs/Lions were likewise set against bombs in the first instance (obviously shells were also taken into account).

The putative design of the theoretical battleships SEEMS to be one vast armoured enclosure.

User avatar
tameraire01
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 11:56 pm

Re: Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of

Post by tameraire01 » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:20 pm

should one have been built in stead of vanguard. If so could it take on any soviet blue water combatants.
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas. Joseph Stalin

pgollin
Senior Member
Posts: 370
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:01 pm

Re: Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of

Post by pgollin » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:29 am

.

A large part of the Admiralty file deals with possible enemies.

Only the Russians are thought of as being capable of building something worth even considering and they are dismissed as being in even a worse economic condition than the UK (this was part of the "1955 at earliest" planning assumption).

Russian cruisers were to be dealt with by either Vanguard or pairs of RN cruisers.

- (At this time carriers were the nucleus of the main Fleet and would not be assigned to convoy protection.)

- (The RN even into the early 50s believed that there was scope for North Atlantic surface raiders as, a: they knew how bad North Atlantic weather was, and b: they were not as laid back as the USN about the "all seeing eye" of radar, the British knowing the power of radio (radar) counter-measures.

- In the mid-50s as radars improved and maritime patrol aircraft could hoist decent un-jammable ones into the middle of the North Atlantic then the anti-Surface Raider role devolved to maritime strike aircraft.

.

User avatar
tameraire01
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 11:56 pm

Re: Could the RN have built Two lion class before the end of

Post by tameraire01 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:01 pm

Some designs the admiralty had were sound designs but the scraped them before being built or getting of the blue-prints. The malta class cv fleet carriers would be some of the biggest we would of built and been big enough for jet ops.The lions would be a very stable gun platform and fast enough to be used as fast escort for the maltas along with the tribal class dd.
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas. Joseph Stalin

Post Reply