Gunfire hits below the waterline?

From the Washington Naval Treaty to the end of the Second World War.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Gunfire hits below the waterline?

Post by alecsandros »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:Thanks Thorsten and Alec !

Would the fuse have made it exploding after it (the 45mm TDS couldn't possibly stop a 14" even travelling at (an up to a certain extent) reduced speed, it could have caused even much more serious damages and casualities as "the compartment above(orange) the electrical powerplant(blue) was a ammunition chamber, flooded boiler room (green)"..... :shock:

Bye, Alberto
... My impression is it was a matter of chance. The shell's fuze simply ran out when the shell was close to, or in contact with, the 45 mm torpedo bulkhead. Probably the force of the explosion ruptured the bulkhead and splinters from the shell and from the bulkhead made it inside the boiler room.
Again, the complete lack of casualties inside an otherwise very largely populated area of the ship makes me believe the explosion was effected entirely outside the TDS.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Gunfire hits below the waterline?

Post by alecsandros »

Thorsten Wahl wrote:
alecsandros wrote:However, the more damaging hit was ultimately the bow hit, also of 14", which slowed down the Bismarck by 2-3 kts and lead to a higher fuel consumption than normal, due to increased drag in the bows, along with other troubles.

H-39 , and any other contemporary battleship, built or not, would suffer the same troubles.
the loss of the boilerroom brought approximately 100 t steam less per hour, this appears as the main reason of reduced speed
nevertheless the roughened hull cause increased drag and fuel consumption too.
... True,
still the ship was expected at 29kts@138000shp, which was theoreticaly possible on 5 boiler rooms operating slightly above their normal maximum output.

But probably consumption would be higher on 5 boiler rooms running above maximum setting than on 6 boiler rooms running on normal settings, hence the 21kts speed ordered on May 25th...
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: Gunfire hits below the waterline?

Post by dunmunro »

alecsandros wrote:
... My impression is it was a matter of chance. The shell's fuze simply ran out when the shell was close to, or in contact with, the 45 mm torpedo bulkhead. Probably the force of the explosion ruptured the bulkhead and splinters from the shell and from the bulkhead made it inside the boiler room.
Again, the complete lack of casualties inside an otherwise very largely populated area of the ship makes me believe the explosion was effected entirely outside the TDS.
My understanding is that men were burned by steam escaping from a steam line cut by a 14in shell splinter. The generator room only had a couple of men in it when it was hit.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Gunfire hits below the waterline?

Post by alecsandros »

dunmunro wrote:
alecsandros wrote:
... My impression is it was a matter of chance. The shell's fuze simply ran out when the shell was close to, or in contact with, the 45 mm torpedo bulkhead. Probably the force of the explosion ruptured the bulkhead and splinters from the shell and from the bulkhead made it inside the boiler room.
Again, the complete lack of casualties inside an otherwise very largely populated area of the ship makes me believe the explosion was effected entirely outside the TDS.
My understanding is that men were burned by steam escaping from a steam line cut by a 14in shell splinter. The generator room only had a couple of men in it when it was hit.
It's possible.
So far I found this :

"The second hit struck beneath the armored belt alongside Compartment XIV and exploded against the torpedo bulkhead. It caused flooding of the forward port generator room and power station No. 4, and shattered the bulkheads between that room and the two adjacent ones, the port No. 2 boiler room and the auxiliary boiler room. Later, it was discovered that this hit had also ripped up several of the fuel tanks in the storage and double bottom"

[Baron von Mullencheim pg 63]

"The lasting effect of the hits in Compartments XIV and XXI was that, mainly because of water pressure on the forward bulkheads, our top speed was restricted to 28 knots. We were now leaving a broad streak of oil in our wake, which was undoubtedly going to help the enemy's reconnaissance and pursuit. The oil was leaking from the service tanks in Compartment XIV and possibly also from the storage tanks in Compartments XX and XXI."

[Idem, pg 65]
User avatar
aurora
Senior Member
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:31 pm
Location: YORKSHIRE

Re: Gunfire hits below the waterline?

Post by aurora »

See below a a side view of the Kirishima showing the position of each shell hit



download.jpg
download.jpg (35.24 KiB) Viewed 4020 times
Quo Fata Vocant-Whither the Fates call

Jim
Byron Angel
Senior Member
Posts: 1656
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:06 am

Re: Gunfire hits below the waterline?

Post by Byron Angel »

..... Was coincidentally reading a paper on the design of US fast battleships, which mentioned certain model tests run by the David Taylor test basin. Results showed that, at speeds between 20-27 knots, the sinusoidal waterline trace at these speeds was so pronounced that the bottom of the main belt was exposed for a considerable distance which included some of the forward magazine spaces.

B
User avatar
aurora
Senior Member
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:31 pm
Location: YORKSHIRE

Re: Gunfire hits below the waterline?

Post by aurora »

Am I right in thinking- that the first two hits aft of the bow (stem) that I have shown diagramatically- would be near the forward magazine spaces,???
Last edited by aurora on Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quo Fata Vocant-Whither the Fates call

Jim
User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 3148
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: Gunfire hits below the waterline?

Post by Dave Saxton »

Byron Angel wrote:..... Was coincidentally reading a paper on the design of US fast battleships, which mentioned certain model tests run by the David Taylor test basin. Results showed that, at speeds between 20-27 knots, the sinusoidal waterline trace at these speeds was so pronounced that the bottom of the main belt was exposed for a considerable distance which included some of the forward magazine spaces.

B
A similar effect is noted by Pugliese in the tank tests of the Littorios. The effect was most prominent at 29 knots. In addition, I recall that when examining photos of the wave forms around Bismarck to calculate speed, that at high speeds, there was a wave trough right about the area where the POW hit was received at Denmark St.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
Post Reply