Italian Raid on Alexandria December 1941

[aurora]

On 19 December 1941,submarine Scirè—at a depth of 15 m (49 ft)—released three manned torpedoes 1.3 mi (1.1 nmi; 2.1 km) from Alexandria commercial harbour, and they entered the naval base when the British opened their defenses to let three of their destroyers pass. There were many difficulties for de la Penne and his crewmate Emilio Bianchi. First, the engine of the torpedo stopped and the two frogmen had to manually push it; then Bianchi had to surface due to problems with the oxygen provider, so that de la Penne had to push the Maiale alone to where HMS Valiant lay. There he successfully placed the limpet mine, just under the hull of the battleship. However, as they both had to surface, and as Bianchi was hurt, they were discovered and captured.

Questioned, both of them kept silent, and they were confined in a compartment aboard Valiant, under the sea level, and coincidentally just over the place where the mine had been placed. Fifteen minutes before the explosion, de la Penne asked to meet with Valiant '​s captain Charles Morgan and then told him of the imminent explosion but refused to give further information, so that he was returned to the compartment. Fortunately for the Italians, when the mine exploded just before them, neither he nor Bianchi were severely injured by the blast, while de la Penne only received a minor injury to the head by a ship chain.

Meanwhile, Marceglia and Schergat had attached their device five feet beneath the battleship HMS Queen Elizabeth's keel as scheduled. They successfully left the harbour area at 4:30 am, and slipped through Alexandria posing as French sailors. They were captured two days later at Rosetta by the Egyptian police while awaiting rescue by the Scirè and handed over to the British.

Martellota and Marino searched in vain for an aircraft carrier purportedly moored at Alexandria, but after sometime they decided to attack a large tanker, the 7554 gross register ton Norwegian Sagona. Marino fixed the mine under the tanker's stern at 02:55. Both divers managed to land unmolested, but were eventually arrested at an Egyptian checkpoint.

In the end, all the divers were made prisoners, but not before their mines exploded, severely damaging both HMS Queen Elizabeth and Valiant, disabling them for nine months and six months respectively. The Sagona lost her stern section and the destroyer HMS Jervis, one of four alongside her refuelling, was badly damaged. Although the two capital ships sank only in a few feet of water and were eventually raised, they were out of action for about a year.

[pgollin]

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YET AGAIN - NO !

Neither ship "sank" (nor did they rest on the bottom) - as confirmed by the original damage reports.

PLEASE CHECK YOUR FACTS.

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[aurora]

Does it really matter- whether they sank in a few feet of water or whether they floated above the bottom-they were taken out of action for some considerable time-which is really what this post is about.

[aurora]

This attack produced a dramatic change of fortunes for the Allies from the strategic point of view during the next six months. The Italian fleet had temporarily wrested naval supremacy in the east-central Mediterranean from the Royal Navy.

Valiant was towed to Admiralty Floating Dock 5 on the 21st for temporary repairs and was under repair at Alexandria until April 1942 when she sailed to Durban. By August, she was operating with Force B off Africa in exercises for the defence of East Africa and operations against Madagascar.Queen Elizabeth was in drydock at Alexandria for temporary repairs until late June 1942, when she sailed for the United States for refit and repairs, which ended the following June 1943. The refit was completed in Britain.Jervis was repaired and operational again by the end of January.

[RF]

This attack produced a dramatic change of fortunes for the Allies from the strategic point of view during the next six months. The Italian fleet had temporarily wrested naval supremacy in the east-central Mediterranean from the Royal Navy.

And did absolutely nothing to follow up that advantage........

[aurora]

Spot on RF; but I think the Human Torpedo Unit remained active-Greetings of the Season to to you.

The Decima MAS saw action starting on June 10, 1940, when Fascist Italy entered World War II. In more than three years of war, the unit destroyed some 72,190 tons of Allied warships and 130,572 tons of Allied merchant ships. Personnel from the unit sank the World War I-era Royal Navy battleships HMS Valiant and HMS Queen Elizabeth (both of which, after months of work, were refloated and returned to action), wrecked the heavy cruiser HMS York and the destroyer HMS Eridge, damaged the destroyer HMS Jervis and sank or damaged 20 merchant ships including supply ships and tankers.

During the course of the war, the Decima MAS was awarded the Golden Medal of Military Valour and individual members were awarded a total of 29 Golden Medals of Military Valour, 104 Silver Medals of Military Valour and 33 Bronze Medals of Military Valour.

[pgollin]

............ Personnel from the unit sank the World War I-era Royal Navy battleships HMS Valiant and HMS Queen Elizabeth (both of which, after months of work, were refloated .............

AGAIN - as they weren't sunk, they could hardly be refloated.

And, as noted by RF the disabling of these two ships SHOULD have allowed the Italians more freedom of action, but they failed. This is why the Italian revisionists' version of The Second Battle of Sirte is such a parody - there the Italians faced the remnants of the Mediterranean Fleet with such force that they should have swept them aside and instead made a complete hash of things - and yet this is glossed over by O'Hara, and others.

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[dunmunro]

In the end, all the divers were made prisoners, but not before their mines exploded, severely damaging both HMS Queen Elizabeth and Valiant, disabling them for nine months and six months respectively. The Sagona lost her stern section and the destroyer HMS Jervis, one of four alongside her refuelling, was badly damaged. Although the two capital ships sank only in a few feet of water and were eventually raised, they were out of action for about a year.

It's really shoddy research on O'Hara's part to state that QE and Valiant were sunk. It reveals that he's relying on secondary sources with all the problems and errors contained therein.

[aurora]

In the end, all the divers were made prisoners, but not before their mines exploded, severely damaging both HMS Queen Elizabeth and Valiant, disabling them for nine months and six months respectively. The Sagona lost her stern section and the destroyer HMS Jervis, one of four alongside her refuelling, was badly damaged. Although the two capital ships sank only in a few feet of water and were eventually raised, they were out of action for about a year.

It's really shoddy research on O'Hara's part to state that QE and Valiant were sunk. It reveals that he's relying on secondary sources with all the problems and errors contained therein.

I fail to see what O'Hara has to do with this;-what I said was the capital ships only sank (not sunk)only in a few feet of water-are you saying that this was not the case?????

[pgollin]

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Now you are showing your lack of knowledge of grammar.

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[Byron Angel]

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Now you are showing your lack of knowledge of grammar.

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...... It seems you are not really embraced by the Christmas spirit today.

It seems to me that the answer lies in exactly what definition one wishes to apply to the verb "sink" -

> If the definition is the creation of a state of negative buoyancy such that the vessel comes to rest upon the bottom, then without question, QE was sunk (VALIANT's case being less clear IMO).
> If the definition is such that a ship is only sunk when she disappears entirely beneath the surface, well then, it must mean those intrepid Swordfish flyers failed at Taranto as well.

Let's stop splitting foolish hairs. The damage inflicted by the Italians at Alexandria was severe. It would unquestionably have sunk QE had she been in the open sea and likely would have done for VALIANT as well - irrespective of any definition of the verb.

Merry Xmas to all.

B

[pgollin]

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YET AGAIN - No !

As stated above, NEITHER ship ever struck the bottom of the harbour, i.e. both ships were AT ALL TIMES afloat.

You still seem to be relying on incorrect secondary sources instead of the official RN damage reports.

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[Byron Angel]

Fair comment, Phil: QE technically did not in fact touch bottom. But here are the damage control measures taken with respect to QE; maybe this is why. According to Burt - "The ship (QE) was lightened by every possible means such as de-ammunitioning, defuelling from sound tanks, depetrolling, disembarking all spare anchors and cables, etc." This sort of effort is possible when a ship is sitting in harbor with manifold support services immediately available to lend a hand, but is not so at sea.

At the end of the day, no matter how the details are parsed, the Alexandria raid was a magnificent feat of arms that any special service organization of any nation would be proud to count among its accomplishments.

Happy Boxing Day.

B

[aurora]

Fair comment, Phil: QE technically did not in fact touch bottom. But here are the damage control measures taken with respect to QE; maybe this is why. According to Burt - "The ship (QE) was lightened by every possible means such as de-ammunitioning, defuelling from sound tanks, depetrolling, disembarking all spare anchors and cables, etc." This sort of effort is possible when a ship is sitting in harbor with manifold support services immediately available to lend a hand, but is not so at sea.

At the end of the day, no matter how the details are parsed, the Alexandria raid was a magnificent feat of arms that any special service organization of any nation would be proud to count among its accomplishments.

Happy Boxing Day.

B

Thank Goodness-Sanity at last-thank you Byron
Seasonal Greetings to all

[pgollin]

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NO ONE has argued that the raid wasn't a success - merely your use of poor secondary sources being wrong.

As far as the actual damage was concerned, the official damage reports assessed that IF the damage had occurred at sea that Queen Elizabeth would have been disabled for a short period and that then she could have retired at slow speed, but would have been unable to fight. Valiant would have been able to fight, but at a slightly reduced speed.

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