2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

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aurora
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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

Post by aurora »

On reflection- I have to agree-I missed what was important. When the misty sun was setting-every destroyer that still possessed a torpedo was pressed into one last action at 18.45.Emerging from the murk,they launched a spread of twenty five torpedoes,clearly visible to the enemy only 6000 yards away.The silhouettes of Iachino's ships visibly shortened as one;as they turned away together on a northerly course,never to return -firing ceased at 18.58.I don't about incompetent; but they did disengage at 6000 yards and chose not to fight.

Source Bernard Ireland's book "The WAR in the Mediterranean 1940-43"
Quo Fata Vocant-Whither the Fates call

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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

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aurora wrote:On reflection- I have to agree-I missed what was important. When the misty sun was setting-every destroyer that still possessed a torpedo was pressed into one last action at 18.45.Emerging from the murk,they launched a spread of twenty five torpedoes,clearly visible to the enemy only 6000 yards away.The silhouettes of Iachino's ships visibly shortened as one;as they turned away together on a northerly course,never to return -firing ceased at 18.58.I don't about incompetent; but they did disengage at 6000 yards and chose not to fight.

Source Bernard Ireland's book "The WAR in the Mediterranean 1940-43"
... Seems Malta kept on fighting despite very small supplies actualy delivered Fev - Dec 1942.
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aurora
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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

Post by aurora »

No question about that Alex; but it was "a close run thing"
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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

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aurora wrote:
...........clearly visible to the enemy only 6000 yards away.The silhouettes of Iachino's ships visibly shortened as one;as they turned away together on a northerly course,never to return -firing ceased at 18.58.I don't about incompetent; but they did disengage at 6000 yards and chose not to fight. ..............


But the 6,000 yards is part of the incompetence - that close and they didn't themselves charge the smokescreen ? (Earlier it would have been much better to go around.) The Italians had clocks, and they could see the weather conditions and yet they chose to waste their own time and chose not to be do anything but hope that the weaker force would come to them ! Passive is too generous, incompetent seems about right.

Just sitting there, hoping that the weaker side would present a nice target , but not going for a victory WAS incompetent. The RN light cruisers and destroyers could (and should) have been crushed and the convoy hunted down. What were the Italians there for ?

It is fascinating to compare the coverage of the "Battle off Samar" and "Second Sirte" Both were great defensive victories with Samar affected by no smokescreen and DEs without torpedoes, BUT with masses of aircraft). Yet the "Italian revisionists" overlook the Italian failings.

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aurora
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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

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I offer no argument Phil; and stand by your stated judgement-6000 yards was extremely lackadaisical without an effective smoke screen.
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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

Post by Byron Angel »

Bagnasco and de Toro ("The Littorio Class") give a useful account of Second Sirte from the Italian point of view. In brief, an envelopment from the east was apparently considered by Iachino, but discarded due to the sharply reduced speed his DDs would have faced driving into the heavy head seas of the strong Scirocco winds blowing out of the SSE/SE. The dusk torpedo attack upon Iachino's main body by Vian's convoy escort, which effectively concluded the engagement, put 25 torpedoes into the water at 6,000 yards range. Although the launch angle was not ideal (more or less from abeam of the Italians rather than from before the beam), it nevertheless forced Iachino to immediately turn away and retreat. By the time Iachino was able to clear the torpedo danger and re-form, darkness was falling and he was unwilling to press a night action against a much better trained British opponent. It is an interesting lesson to learn that half of any battle takes place in the heads of the opposing commanders.

All in all, a masterfully conducted battle by Vian under the most difficult imaginable circumstances.

B
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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

Post by Dave Saxton »

Thanks Byron. Such details are often missing from accounts. Visibility, the wind guage, sea conditions, night fighting capabilities and liabilities, and so forth, all have to be considered by commanders on the scene. That throws the Italian decision making into a new light.

Torpedos are ship killers. Staying clear of torpedo waters with heavy warships if at all possible is an imperative for any naval commander. Really the Italians had no bussiness being 6,000 yards from a torpedo toting enemy. That is glaring tactical error.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

Post by pgollin »

Byron Angel wrote:
(A) ............ In brief, an envelopment from the east was apparently considered by Iachino, but discarded due to the sharply reduced speed his DDs would have faced driving into the heavy head seas of the strong Scirocco winds blowing out of the SSE/SE. ...........

(B) .......... it nevertheless forced Iachino to immediately turn away and retreat. ...........

(C) .............. It is an interesting lesson to learn that half of any battle takes place in the heads of the opposing commanders. .............

(A) The same problems of reduced speed would apply to British destroyers.

(B) Why turn away instead of turning towards and attacking ? Turning towards a torpedo attack was the general plan for the RN.

(C) Yes, yes, yes.

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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

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pgollin wrote:
Byron Angel wrote:
(A) ............ In brief, an envelopment from the east was apparently considered by Iachino, but discarded due to the sharply reduced speed his DDs would have faced driving into the heavy head seas of the strong Scirocco winds blowing out of the SSE/SE. ...........

(B) .......... it nevertheless forced Iachino to immediately turn away and retreat. ...........

(C) .............. It is an interesting lesson to learn that half of any battle takes place in the heads of the opposing commanders. .............

(A) The same problems of reduced speed would apply to British destroyers.

(B) Why turn away instead of turning towards and attacking ? Turning towards a torpedo attack was the general plan for the RN.

(C) Yes, yes, yes.

.
[A] One possible answer to this question may be the seakeeping qualities of the Italian DDs. British DDs were designed to live and operate in heavy N Atlantic conditions; I cannot speak to Italian DD designs with authority, but my general sense is that they were rather more lightly built.

I suspect the crux of the matter is doctrinal mindset and the Italian navy always impressed me as being somewhat risk averse. A properly timed and executed turnaway would almost comprehensively frustrate such a torpedo attack by retreating beyond the running range of the approaching torpedoes (barring the Japanese Type 93 perhaps). A turn towards on the other hand still has risks. Combing of the tracks will dramatically reduce the possibility of hits, but does eliminate the possibility altogether; it could also arguably place the formation in a vulnerable position in the case of a second-wave follow-on torpedo attack.

B
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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

Post by Dave Saxton »

Darkness falling was probably the primary concern. Risks to torpedos are far greater in darkness, and how effective could the Italians be at night fighting at that time? How could the Italians locate and target very many scattered convoy ships in darkness effectively?
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

Post by aurora »

Quote Dave
"How could the Italians locate and target very many scattered convoy ships in darkness effectively?"

Quote from Post1
"At dusk, about 19:00, the Italians gave up and turned for home. Without radar, they would have been at a significant disadvantage in a night action, as in the Battle of Cape Matapan".So no surprise the Italians could not locate and target ships in darkness
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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

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Byron Angel wrote:Combing of the tracks will dramatically reduce the possibility of hits, but does <<<NOT>>> eliminate the possibility altogether; it could also arguably place the formation in a vulnerable position in the case of a second-wave follow-on torpedo attack.
B
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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

Post by Dave Saxton »

aurora wrote:Quote Dave
"How could the Italians locate and target very many scattered convoy ships in darkness effectively?"

Quote from Post1
"At dusk, about 19:00, the Italians gave up and turned for home. Without radar, they would have been at a significant disadvantage in a night action, as in the Battle of Cape Matapan".So no surprise the Italians could not locate and target ships in darkness
Actually Littorio had an experimental radar set. Only Littorio had one, all the other units did not have one. This radar set was not capable of directing fire through a smoke screen or at night. The Italians were not happy with the performance of this set and replaced it on Littorio with a second experimetal set a month after this battle (is the timing coincidental or because of this battle's experience?) Then in Aug Littorio had this second experimental set replaced by the first production Gufo (Owl) radar. V V didn't get any radar until early 1943.

I read in Whitely that the Italians had two destroyers founder in the heavy seas during this operation.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

Post by Dave Saxton »

Byron Angel wrote:
Byron Angel wrote:Combing of the tracks will dramatically reduce the possibility of hits, but does <<<NOT>>> eliminate the possibility altogether; it could also arguably place the formation in a vulnerable position in the case of a second-wave follow-on torpedo attack.
B
That's okay Byron, myself and probably everyone else understood it was just a typo. :D
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Re: 2nd Battle of Sirte-22nd-27th March 1942

Post by pgollin »

Dave Saxton wrote:
Darkness falling was probably the primary concern. Risks to torpedos are far greater in darkness, and how effective could the Italians be at night fighting at that time? How could the Italians locate and target very many scattered convoy ships in darkness effectively?


.

The only reason there still there at dusk was because they could not sort out what to do. They knew what the time was and they wasted it.

IF they had swatted the RN force aside they would have been free to use starshells or searchlights to find merchant targets. The RN operated ships at night without radar.

( The WW1 RN tactic was (ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL) to turn away from torpedoes to give more time to manoevre. By WW2 this had changed (again all other things being equal) to turning towards the torpedoes both for tactical considerations, but also as a hit on the bow would probably cause less serious damage than to the stern. )

What I don't understand is why the RN force spent most (all ?) of its torpedoes at this time, was it trying to cripple one ship to try to get the Italians to withdraw ? Or, did they "know" that the Italians would ithdraw at dusk ?

Those torpedoes would have been useful IF the Italians had tried a night fight.

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