Graf Zeppelin vs HMS Ark Royal and Victorious

[als_pug]

I read some of the posts and alot of people are talking about the superiority of the ME-109 . Their is two points i would like to bring up . first is the similarity between the seafire and the navalised ME-109 . of course we are not talking about the seafire being present i am just using it to prove a point . When the RN took it's seafire's to sea most losses were caused by undercarraige failure. several people have already spoken about the need for carrier planes to be designed from the ground up . ( points at the f-111 b ) i would assume by the time the me-109 equipped GZ is in range of the ARK royal several of the ME_109 will already be destroyed from landing accidents. the ju-87 is going to be easy meat for a fulmar let alone a hurricane. so you are looking at a very interesting battle. the GZ was well designed in most respects but killed by one man . Herman Goering . . now add FW-190,s to the airgroup and i'd happily stack it against any other cv of the time . the Swordfish is going to die easy against a me-109 . the skua would also be a fairly easy target . the fulmar well it's not exactly a match for a ME-109 but it does have the legs on it. . honestly i say both carriers run out of planes and the GZ closes to gun range and sinks her with 5.9's lol

[RF]

I think it unlikely that 15 cm guns are likely to finish British carriers, it would take a lot of time and ammunition. In the meantime the British carrier escorts can attack GZ.

[lwd]

.. the GZ was well designed in most respects ...

Of course one of the areas where it was not well designed was air ops. Oops.

. now add FW-190,s to the airgroup and i'd happily stack it against any other cv of the time ....

You really think it would do well against Enterprise or Lexington or any of the other pre war US CVs? It might have a chance vs Langley. Personally I'd place it capability wise somewhere between a US CVL and a CVE.

[David89]

Personally I would put the Graf Zeppelin closer to an Independence class class CVL in capability than a CVE, and if moderner German aircraft could be found to equip her then I would rank her capabilites over a CVL. For example, if Fw 190Ds or Ta 152s could be navalised for the fighter role, with Fw 190Fs serving as dive and torpedo bombers, though I'm not sure a 190F with a torpedo could take off from a carrier deck without catapault assistance and I understand the range would be limited when compared to a conventional torpedo bomber. Alternatively the whole force of 50 plus aircraft could be made up of 190Fs, which could interchangeably fit the roles of fighter, dive bomber and torpedo bomber. None of which would make the Graf Zeppelin as good as an Essex class or similar, but with better aircraft she could have been a half decent carrier.

[lwd]

Personally I would put the Graf Zeppelin closer to an Independence class class CVL in capability than a CVE, and if moderner German aircraft could be found to equip her then I would rank her capabilites over a CVL. For example, if Fw 190Ds or Ta 152s could be navalised for the fighter role, with Fw 190Fs serving as dive and torpedo bombers, though I'm not sure a 190F with a torpedo could take off from a carrier deck without catapault assistance and I understand the range would be limited when compared to a conventional torpedo bomber. Alternatively the whole force of 50 plus aircraft could be made up of 190Fs, which could interchangeably fit the roles of fighter, dive bomber and torpedo bomber. None of which would make the Graf Zeppelin as good as an Essex class or similar, but with better aircraft she could have been a half decent carrier.

Bunch of problems here. For one thing at least as she was being built catapult launch appears to be the only option. Furthermore she had enough steam to launch 18 planes from an earlier quote. Then it's something like one and a half hours before the pressure is recharged. So this limits a strike to 18 aircraft. A US CVE can put up a larger strike as can the CVL. Furthermore the US CV can thicken it CAP soon after a strike is launched if needed. Then there's the fact that Graf Zeppelin not going to carry 50 plus Fw or Stukda's probably less than 40 of such air craft.

Now all this is without even considering things like radar, doctrine, or operational experiance. Note that GZ has some problems against British CVs after 41 as some of them are capable of launching night time torpedo stikes guided by radar equiped planes.

[Tiornu]

Of course one of the areas where it was not well designed was air ops. Oops.

Can someone help me out here? In what aspect WAS the ship well designed?

[lwd]

Can someone help me out here? In what aspect WAS the ship well designed?

My impression was that her hull and power plant were well designed but now that I think of it did she use the high pressure power plants like some of the other German ships of her generation. Maybe just her hull ... but then I'm no expert.

[Bgile]

Can someone help me out here? In what aspect WAS the ship well designed?

Sorry, I have no idea. Considering their strategic situation, I don't think they really had any use for even a well designed CV.

[Tiornu]

The power plant was basically the same as Prinz Eugen's. I do like those little bow propellers, though.

[Legend]

Little bow propellers!?!?!?!?!

[Tiornu]

Yeah, they were meant to maneuver the ship in the tight confines of a harbor. They could also propel the ship at a minimal speed. Bismarck could have used a set after her rudder got jammed.

[Legend]

Is there any info or pictures on this? For I haven't seen any at all (obviously!)!!!

[Tiornu]

The premier source on GZ is Einziger deutscher Flugzeugträger Graf Zeppelin by Israel...yes, it's in German. But there are good English-language sources as well. Whitley's German Capital Ships of World War Two does a great job with the battleships but also has a chapter on aircraft carriers, including drawings. There was a skinny paperback by Breyer called The German Aircraft Carrier Graf Zeppelin from Schiffer Publishing that can be had cheaply. Breyer more recently did a book called Graf Zeppelin with AJ Press which may be the most complete Engliah-language technical guide. Don't get the two Breyer books mixed up. You can also get the latest issue of Warship International which features a pair of GZ articles. A book called Without Wings by Burke came out last year, I think, but I can't really recommend it.

[David89]

Personally I would put the Graf Zeppelin closer to an Independence class class CVL in capability than a CVE, and if moderner German aircraft could be found to equip her then I would rank her capabilites over a CVL. For example, if Fw 190Ds or Ta 152s could be navalised for the fighter role, with Fw 190Fs serving as dive and torpedo bombers, though I'm not sure a 190F with a torpedo could take off from a carrier deck without catapault assistance and I understand the range would be limited when compared to a conventional torpedo bomber. Alternatively the whole force of 50 plus aircraft could be made up of 190Fs, which could interchangeably fit the roles of fighter, dive bomber and torpedo bomber. None of which would make the Graf Zeppelin as good as an Essex class or similar, but with better aircraft she could have been a half decent carrier.

Bunch of problems here. For one thing at least as she was being built catapult launch appears to be the only option. Furthermore she had enough steam to launch 18 planes from an earlier quote. Then it's something like one and a half hours before the pressure is recharged. So this limits a strike to 18 aircraft. A US CVE can put up a larger strike as can the CVL. Furthermore the US CV can thicken it CAP soon after a strike is launched if needed. Then there's the fact that Graf Zeppelin not going to carry 50 plus Fw or Stukda's probably less than 40 of such air craft.

Now all this is without even considering things like radar, doctrine, or operational experiance. Note that GZ has some problems against British CVs after 41 as some of them are capable of launching night time torpedo stikes guided by radar equiped planes.

While I don't think that a torpedo carrying Fw190 could get off the deck without using the catapault, a Fw190 acting in the fighter role should be able to take off under its own power, which would allow for escorting fighters to be provided for a strike or strenghening of the CAP following a strike launch. So a strike of 18 torpedo bombers plus fighter escort should be possible, which at least matches the maximum aircraft loadout of a CVE, this being 24 aircraft for a Bogue class or 28 for the Casablanca class. Since the original planned loadout for the Graf Zeppelin was 20xFi 167, 10xBf 109T and 13xJu87 for a total of 43, and since the Fw190 is considerably smaller than either the Fi 167 or Ju87, it should be possible to carry more aircraft, and 50 seems a reasonable number.

While the Germans had some pretty decent radar, I can't answer your points on doctrine and operational experience as the Germans had no previous carriers, and it would seem not many ideas for what to do with the one they were building. The Luftwaffe having operational control over the aircraft on board Graf Zeppelin doesn't seem to be a good thing either.

[lwd]

...While I don't think that a torpedo carrying Fw190 could get off the deck without using the catapault, a Fw190 acting in the fighter role should be able to take off under its own power, which would allow for escorting fighters to be provided for a strike or strenghening of the CAP following a strike launch. ...

When this came up on another thread it was pointed out that the catapults had raised sections that would make direct fly offs difficult/dangerous if possible at all. Now in all likelyhood give a month or 6 to test things out some revisions would have been likely but then that puts the carrier out of action for a few more months ....