Bismarck vs. Rodney: hand to hand?

[Tiornu]

Allied BBs shows the Massechusetts 16" hit on JB's (empty) secondary magazine , and it clearly shows the powder rooms above the shell rooms.

I checked, and yes, there are definitely separate shell and powder rooms. However, they are paired on the same levels. If you move forward from that G&D cross section, a shell room is directly forward of the labeled powder rooms, plus that one shell room beneath the powder. It appears that shell rooms are always forward of the powder. I don't know if the designers were thinking that actions would take place forward of the beam and were hoping to use the shells as splinter stoppers in that way...? I don't have a sufficiently detailed drawing of Gascogne to see how that arrangement would have differed. This is actually interesting. I'll ask around and see what I can come up with.

I would guess that the IJN would have followed RN WW1 practice and placed the shell rooms below the magazines.

I was thinking the same thing except I didn't know the RN was arranging things with the powder on top. But Kongo and Fuso also had the shell rooms above the powder. I agree this is a better arrangement for the protection afforded by the shell bodies, even in the days of more volatile bursters.

[Bgile]

dunmunro has pointed out a plan for the ship that shows another space labeled powder magazine above the magazine I just described and he seems to be using that to state that "the" powder magazine was on the same level as the shell flats, and I wanted to clear that up. I don't know what that upper space is, but I do know there is no connection between it and the turret, and it isn't part of the loading cycle. I haven't been in that magazine, but I suspect it is used to store powder cans until space is available in the magazine below it.

You can find the location of Iowa's magazines on pages 4, 11 and 12 of these plans:
http://hnsa.org/doc/pdf/bbnjplans.pdf

The powder magazines, I'm referring to are between turret 1 and 2 - page 4 gives a good view of this area. On the KGV the shell rooms would be above the magazines, with the magazines at the same level as the Iowa pump room #3.

That powder magazine is the one I was referring to which has no connection with the loading cycle. You have taken that one powder mag out of four to infer that Iowa's powder magazine(s) were all on the same level as her shell rooms, and generally speaking, they weren't.

[Farragut]

Bgile wrote:
I think Lee was a battleship man through and through and he would have eagerly accepted the chance to engage Yamato.

That wasn't the "safe" thing to do though, and he didn't get his chance.

Sorry, it wasn't Lee in command of the BB's, it was Deyo. Spruance directed Deyo to let Yamto proceed far enough south to maker retreat impossible and then to engage Yamato with everything he had. But Mitscher wasn't going to let a relic like a battleship admiral have the glory of sinking the world's largest battleship. Mitscher wanted to hammer in the final nail in the battleship coffin himself.

[Karl Heidenreich]

dunmuro:

You can find the location of Iowa's magazines on pages 4, 11 and 12 of these plans:

http://hnsa.org/doc/pdf/bbnjplans.pdf

The powder magazines, I'm referring to are between turret 1 and 2 - page 4 gives a good view of this area. On the KGV the shell rooms would be above the magazines, with the magazines at the same level as the Iowa pump room #3.

Thanks a lot for the link! Very good to see the internal distribution of Missouri´s.

[RF]

That´s up a posibility, yes. That Japanese .... would have never used their BBs in order to destroy another BBs, that´s why they had their CV forces: Pearl, PoW, Repulse, Midway and Yamato witness this.

The Japanese were never presented with this opportunity.

I am quite sure that if a US or British battleship came within striling range of Yamato the Japs would have gone for it would they not? After all Yamato was built because some Japanese admirals believed in the primacy of the battleship.

[Karl Heidenreich]

RF:

The Japanese were never presented with this opportunity.

Until the Japanese CVs were destroyed they began using their surface fleet as main combat units. For instance, when Kido Butai headed for Midway the BBs were still put at harbor and the CV sailors joked about the big pleasure yachts they were.

[Bgile]

RF:

The Japanese were never presented with this opportunity.

Until the Japanese CVs were destroyed they began using their surface fleet as main combat units. For instance, when Kido Butai headed for Midway the BBs were still put at harbor and the CV sailors joked about the big pleasure yachts they were.

Not sure what you mean here. There were Japanese battleships at Midway including Yamato.

[Karl Heidenreich]

RF:

Not sure what you mean here. There were Japanese battleships at Midway including Yamato.

Haruna and Kirishima were Kido Butai´s escorts. They didn´t fight. The Combined Fleet Main Body´s battleships were safely 300 or more miles and were not intended for them to fight.

The Japanese BBs began fighting only in conditions were the CVs definitely couldn´t engage or later in the war when there were no CV or planes to operate from them.

Best regards.

[RF]

This is later in the war when the US had considerable air superiority, not a straight battleship on battleship scenario.

[Karl Heidenreich]

RF:

This is later in the war when the US had considerable air superiority, not a straight battleship on battleship scenario.

Not really understand what you´re trying to say...

[Karl Heidenreich]

OK. Bismarck has the edge here, Bismarck is likely winner, more if we considered the Lindeman-Schneider factor.

[David89]

I'm not sure its as simple as that, because I don't think this battle is going to end with either ship sinking the other, though its likely both ships will end up badly damaged if Bismarck chooses to fight. Bismarck may indeed inflict more damage in this case, but I don't think Bismarck would choose to engage unless she was forced to, because the consequences of taking serious damage and being slowed down is that Bismarck will most likely be sunk by another British BB.

[alecsandros]

I dug this up some time ago, but I only decided to reply now.

From a pure technological point of view, Bismarck would most likely make Rodney a steaming pile of rubble, because of:
- faster speed >> the Rodney couldn't get away
- much better fire control, stability and grouping of salvos >>> greater probability of early straddles/hits
- much higher rate of fire >>> much more tons of shells/minute, once the target is locked (about 16 tons fired from BS vs 12,5 tons fired from Rodney)
- greater internal subdivision, better protected vitals >>> better survivability under Rodney's fire than the other way around

Rodney's advantages, IMO, would be:
- better protection from diving shells coming from the SK34 guns than the BS has against Rodney's 406mm guns.
- better protected turrets and barbettes
- higher probable damage/shell, due to the bigger bursting charge and overall mass of the 16" shells.

However, again, from a purely technological standpoint, I think Bismarck's advantages over the Rodney are more numerous and more important than the other way around.

[Bgile]

I dug this up some time ago, but I only decided to reply now.

From a pure technological point of view, Bismarck would most likely make Rodney a steaming pile of rubble, because of:

"steaming pile of rubble" is not a term I'd use ... it implies all sorts of emotional overtones some people have in this forum, like "if it's German it is always better".

- faster speed >> the Rodney couldn't get away

Why would Rodney want to get away unless she was so badly damaged she couldn't run away anyway? Bismarck probably gets to choose whether or not to fight.

- much better fire control, stability and grouping of salvos >>> greater probability of early straddles/hits
- much higher rate of fire >>> much more tons of shells/minute, once the target is locked (about 16 tons fired from BS vs 12,5 tons fired from Rodney)

I agree these might be important, and it might be the most important difference between the two ships.

- greater internal subdivision, better protected vitals >>> better survivability under Rodney's fire than the other way around

While true, I don't see how this makes one outcome more likely than another. It just makes Bismarck harder to sink after Rodney has "won" the actual gunnery duel.

Rodney's advantages, IMO, would be:
- better protection from diving shells coming from the SK34 guns than the BS has against Rodney's 406mm guns.

I don't think this is true. I think Rodney is vulnerable to diving shell. IIRC her belt is pretty shallow.

- better protected turrets and barbettes

True, and this could be important if the battle lasts very long.

- higher probable damage/shell, due to the bigger bursting charge and overall mass of the 16" shells.

I don't think this is a big factor. What will decide this is penetrating hits to weapons or fire control or vitals. It's very hard to get into Bismarck's vitals at the range likely for this battle except below her belt armor. Luck could be an important factor, and that seems to often be the case.

However, again, from a purely technological standpoint, I think Bismarck's advantages over the Rodney are more numerous and more important than the other way around.

I agree with this statement. Considering Bismarck's size and newness, it would look pretty bad if that wasn't the case.

[alecsandros]

Hello Steve,

Rodney's advantages, IMO, would be:
- better protection from diving shells coming from the SK34 guns than the BS has against Rodney's 406mm guns.

I don't think this is true. I think Rodney is vulnerable to diving shell. IIRC her belt is pretty shallow.

I meant "diving" against the deck
I wasn't paying attention to the under-belt. Now that you've mentioned it, it seems pretty important, indeed...

... Considering Bismarck's size and newness, it would look pretty bad if that wasn't the case.

It would, isn't it ?