Aoba V Manchester

[Gary]

Hi to all.

Assuming HMS Manchester was not lost off Tunisia like she was historically.......

How would she match up in Eastern waters against the Japanese CA Aoba?
The weakest of the IJN's CA's but she proved to be quite rugged, survivng numerous shell hits at Cape Esperance.
Manchesters sub-class of cruisers had thicker turret armour than the other Towns, she also had 12 guns to Aoba's 6.

[Bgile]

12 guns vs 6? Isn't that result kind of obvious?

[alecsandros]

How powerfull were Aoba's/Manchester's guns?

[neil hilton]

Aoba had 8" 50cal type 2s mounted in 3 twin mounts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Aoba http://www.combinedfleet.com/203_50_2.htm

Manchester had 4 triple 6" mk 23s mounted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Manchester_(15) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_6_inch_ ... _naval_gun

So the question is will 12x6" defeat 6x8". 12x6" will saturate the target, so more hits but the 8" will cause more damage if they do hit.

[alecsandros]

It seems Aoba has slightly heavier broadside and gun range.
Manchester had twice more guns...

I think the difference would be crews and fire control...

[Bgile]

6" splashes can't be spotted effectively over about 18,000 yds.

If the battle occurs at 10,000 yds or less, obviously the 6" gunned ship has the edge. Somewhere in between there is a crossover.

If, for example, a turret is hit and penetrated by a 6" shell, it will be knocked out. Similar result would be obtained by an 8" shell. Some hits by 8" would be more damaging, but obviously not all.

One point is that the British didn't make AP shells for 6" caliber.

[lwd]

Didn't Aoba also carry type 93's? Pluses and minuses associated with that. Does give the Japanese a chance of an early kill though. Weather and lighting could be very significant here.

[dunmunro]

Manchester would probably have been fitted with type 284 and type 285 gunnery radar, to complement her type 279 AW set. This could give her an edge in some scenarios. Also, AFAIK, Aoba only had splinter proof protection to her turrets, so a 6" hit would have knocked them out.

[neil hilton]

Manchester can throw 96 shells per minute and Aoba can throw 24 per minute at maximum. This is 10750 lbs of explosive per minute for Manchester and 6640 lbs for Aoba. So Manchester has a much heavier broadside.

[lwd]

... Also, AFAIK, Aoba only had splinter proof protection to her turrets, so a 6" hit would have knocked them out.

That was one of the weaknesses of most (all?) Japanese cruisers from what I recall. Landing a hit in the torpedo area if they were still aboard or even if the oxygen was might actually be more critical. Given the critical areas of Aoba the longer the fight last the more likely she is to loose IMO. Especially when loosing a turret means loosing half your firepower or taking a hit in the torpedos may mean the catastrophic loss of the ship.

[Gary]

12 guns vs 6? Isn't that result kind of obvious?

Well HMS Renown had only 6 guns against 18 German guns off Norway yet she did ok!

Aoba proved to be a tough old dog when she survived the numerous hits at Cape Esperance - I'm wondering if Manchester would fare similiarly?

[lwd]

Manchester can throw 96 shells per minute and Aoba can throw 24 per minute at maximum. This is 10750 lbs of explosive per minute for Manchester and 6640 lbs for Aoba. So Manchester has a much heavier broadside.

According to my calculations Manchester's broadside is about 80% of Aoba's. Navweapons rates Aoba as 3-5 rounds per minute and the British 6" gun as 6-8
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_8-50_3ns.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_6-50_mk23.htm
So if both are firing at full rate that Manchester has a throw weight that varies from 96% to 214% of Aoba's. On the other hand Aoba's got a real AP shell where the British don't.

[dunmunro]

Manchester can throw 96 shells per minute and Aoba can throw 24 per minute at maximum. This is 10750 lbs of explosive per minute for Manchester and 6640 lbs for Aoba. So Manchester has a much heavier broadside.

According to my calculations Manchester's broadside is about 80% of Aoba's. Navweapons rates Aoba as 3-5 rounds per minute and the British 6" gun as 6-8
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_8-50_3ns.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_6-50_mk23.htm
So if both are firing at full rate that Manchester has a throw weight that varies from 96% to 214% of Aoba's. On the other hand Aoba's got a real AP shell where the British don't.

Navweaps states:Rate Of Fire Aoba and Furutaka classes: Less than 2 rounds per minute Others: 3 to 5 rounds per minute

Aoba only has a 3" belt and 1" turrets, so a 6" SAP round is probably going to be quite effective and more destructive than a true AP round with only a small burster.

[RF]

It seems Aoba has slightly heavier broadside and gun range.
Manchester had twice more guns...

I think the difference would be crews and fire control...

I would agree with this, and my money would be on the Manchester....

[lwd]

I missed the note on Aoba's slow rate of fire. Back to something close to my original position. Aoba needs to get lucky with her torpedos early in the action or she will likely be in trouble. Even if her armr turns some of the 6" rounds given the disparity on rounds per minute she's going to have a rough time winning a gun fight.