BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
Moderator: Bill Jurens
BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
I ran across my copy of D'Eyncourt's post-war analysis of SMS BADEN, which includes some detailed (from Goodall) transverse cross-sectional diagrams of BADEN through her magazine and machinery spaces. A comparison of BADEN's armor scheme versus that of BISMARCK leads me to conclude that any relationship must be viewed as superficial at best. While one can argue that the presence of an upper belt in the BISMARCK scheme links her to the BADEN design, the most important features of BISMARCK's amor layout, i.e. the heavy deck scarp behind the lower belt and the unusual armored deck scheme, are unique to BISMARCK.
I will say that a closer familial relationship might fairly be argued when the overall internal layout of the two ships are compared, but that is another discussion for another day.
My opinion, for whatever it's worth.
Byron
I will say that a closer familial relationship might fairly be argued when the overall internal layout of the two ships are compared, but that is another discussion for another day.
My opinion, for whatever it's worth.
Byron
Re: BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
Hmmm.... I thought the Baden did have both the upper armored deck and the scarp. I can't find a drawing at the moment.
Re: BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
..... BADEN had two armored decks. The uppermost was at weather deck level forward and aft in the way of the main battery turrets and over the 5.9in battery amidships; a conventional armored lower deck lay beneath it, covering the machinery and magazines. Each was about 1.2in in thickness. All in all, the layout was pretty conventional by WW1 standards.Bgile wrote:Hmmm.... I thought the Baden did have both the upper armored deck and the scarp. I can't find a drawing at the moment.
The lower armor deck of BADEN did slope down to meet the bottom of the main belt. In that sense it might technically be described as a scarp but it was of the same thickness as the flat portion of the deck - 1.2in - again, pretty conventional by WW1 standards. The material and important difference between these sloped portions was the massively greater armor thickness employed in the case of BISMARCK. In BADEN's case, I think we are looking at a simple conventional splinter catcher; in the case of BISMARCK, we are looking at a system designed intentionally to defeat projectiles that pierced the main belt.
Byron
Re: BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
That may be, but in both cases the cross sectional appearance is essentially the same. Bismarck's scarp is also about the same thickness as the lower armor deck, but of course much thicker and obviously the Bismarck's designers intended the increased thickness to provide better protection against shells piercing the main armor belt. I think a number of WWI battleships had a scarp, but Bismarck is the only WWII battleship I'm aware of which does.Byron Angel wrote: The lower armor deck of BADEN did slope down to meet the bottom of the main belt. In that sense it might technically be described as a scarp but it was of the same thickness as the flat portion of the deck - 1.2in - again, pretty conventional by WW1 standards. The material and important difference between these sloped portions was the massively greater armor thickness employed in the case of BISMARCK. In BADEN's case, I think we are looking at a simple conventional splinter catcher; in the case of BISMARCK, we are looking at a system designed intentionally to defeat projectiles that pierced the main belt.
I don't understand the controversy. It's perfectly logical to use an existing design which worked reasonably well and improve upon it in the next generation. All sorts of navies did this sort of thing, but there seems to be an aversion to that idea in this forum. Maybe they think that makes Bismarck less special? I don't know.
Re: BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
After giving thought to your comments, Begile, I've changed my opinion. What I viewed as >>>differences<< could just as easily be seen simply as >>>improvements<<< to the BADEN armor scheme. One other very BADEN-like point which I noticed was the substantial thinning of BISMARCK's main battery barbette armor from 340mm to 220mm below the armored weather deck.
Byron
Byron
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Re: BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
Hello guys,
What was the side-armor of the coning tower ?
What was the side-armor of the coning tower ?
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Re: BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
Accordinng to Brower's book (page 59) it looks like the side armor for the Foretop Superstructure is 60mm and around the Forward Artillery post 350mm.
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Re: BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
And Baden ?frontkampfer wrote:Accordinng to Brower's book (page 59) it looks like the side armor for the Foretop Superstructure is 60mm and around the Forward Artillery post 350mm.
Re: BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
Going back to the title of this thread I think it is well known that Bismarck was originally planned on the blueprints of SMS Baden and modified on the basis of the technology of twenty years after that original design. The issue of whether Bismarck is really a Baden class battleship has been raised in earlier threads and there is I think a danger that this issue is debated to the nth degree largely focussing on semantics and interpretation without arriving at a productive or useful conclusion.
My thoughts for what they are worth.
My thoughts for what they are worth.
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Re: BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
Hoyer pretty much sets the record straight and makes clear that the armour scheme used by the Germans circa WWII was based on careful analysis of contempory armour and shell dynamics to best meet specific modern IZ requirements, and not a carry over of design to save time or because they didn't know any better. They considered it the best approach to address contempory armour protection problems. Hoyer made clear that they thoroughly understood and weighed alternative armour schemes and also specific approaches used by others.
I have detailed USN drawings of West Virginia. It had scarps of splinter protection thickness, and it uses a four twin turret layout. I guess one could make a case that Bismarck was a scaled up West Virginia as well as a Baden based on that.
I have detailed USN drawings of West Virginia. It had scarps of splinter protection thickness, and it uses a four twin turret layout. I guess one could make a case that Bismarck was a scaled up West Virginia as well as a Baden based on that.
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Re: BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
All of the important and well known authors on Battleship Design such as Friedman, Raven, Garzke and Dullin have refered to this issue. I think that the most categorical has been Garzke: Bismarck is NOT a Baden heir. As Saxton put it: Bismarck can be an upscale Baden as can be a West Virginia one.
It has been discussed several times in this forum, also.
Regards,
It has been discussed several times in this forum, also.
Regards,
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Sir Winston Churchill
Re: BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
The obvious difference West virginia doesn't have three screws with all three engine rooms aft. Also, the Germans had no reason to evolve from a US design.Dave Saxton wrote:Hoyer pretty much sets the record straight and makes clear that the armour scheme used by the Germans circa WWII was based on careful analysis of contempory armour and shell dynamics to best meet specific modern IZ requirements, and not a carry over of design to save time or because they didn't know any better. They considered it the best approach to address contempory armour protection problems. Hoyer made clear that they thoroughly understood and weighed alternative armour schemes and also specific approaches used by others.
I have detailed USN drawings of West Virginia. It had scarps of splinter protection thickness, and it uses a four twin turret layout. I guess one could make a case that Bismarck was a scaled up West Virginia as well as a Baden based on that.
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Re: BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
Right, and that's the point. Similarity doesn't prove a carry over of design, anymore than a 2010 Ford Mustang isn't the same exact thing as a 1968 Ford Mustang because they utilize same styling motifs and have four wheels, rear wheel drive, a forward mounted engine, and middle mounted transmission.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Re: BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
[quote="Bgile"The obvious difference West virginia doesn't have three screws with all three engine rooms aft. Also, the Germans had no reason to evolve from a US design.[/quote]
...and if they DID evolve from the WV, they should have kept her guns (more oomph)
I've owned '66, '67, and '88 Mustangs, all with 289 and 302 motors and manuals. I want a 2011 5.0 in a big way...
...and if they DID evolve from the WV, they should have kept her guns (more oomph)
Yeah, but that 2010 does look a lot like a 1969 Mach 1.Dave Saxton wrote:Similarity doesn't prove a carry over of design, anymore than a 2010 Ford Mustang isn't the same exact thing as a 1968 Ford Mustang because they utilize same styling motifs and have four wheels, rear wheel drive, a forward mounted engine, and middle mounted transmission.
I've owned '66, '67, and '88 Mustangs, all with 289 and 302 motors and manuals. I want a 2011 5.0 in a big way...
Shift Colors... underway.
Re: BISMARCK armor scheme = BADEN?
..... No one here is arguing that BISMARCK is a simple or slavish copy of the BADEN design, but there are plenty of earmarks that it broadly followed a similar general design approach for those who are willing to see them. Set a scale with one end representing a classic all-or-nothing armor scheme and the opposite end representing the BADEN armor approach. Where should BISMARCK be positioned on the scale?Dave Saxton wrote:Right, and that's the point. Similarity doesn't prove a carry over of design, anymore than a 2010 Ford Mustang isn't the same exact thing as a 1968 Ford Mustang because they utilize same styling motifs and have four wheels, rear wheel drive, a forward mounted engine, and middle mounted transmission.
Byron