Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby delcyros » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:26 pm

You are perfectly right, D.

It´s my mistake. Somehow a I pasted a figure from the metric column instead of the yard one into my statistic tool. I have corrected this in the meantime. I also included the salvo numbering, more precise timings of the salvo from the gunnery records but left out the dispersion patterns, for which only estimates existed in absence of more authoritative evidence. Here is my graph redone:

Image

The first hit represents the penetrating hit which entered and exited the bow unexploded*, the 2nd hit was short and diving below the belt exploding in the wingtank or against the torpedo bulkhead and the third hit was slightly over, hitting the boat deck and deflected overboard unexploded*.
I think the conclusions drawn above are still valid. A significant and new contribution is the experience that some of the salvo´s have been misspotted by PoW.

*)"unexploded" may not be misinterpreted to equal a dud
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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby dunmunro » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:02 pm

Thanks, that's very interesting.
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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby Thorsten Wahl » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:11 am

What was the minimum thickness of plate to start the fuze of the british shell?

in general the pentrated thickness for hit No 1 should be able to start fuze action, as it passes through 35 mm and 60 mm Wh as far as I can see; regardless from this, the beam of the ship was to low for a detonation within the ship and the projectile should have exploded in the water
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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby delcyros » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:50 am

According to Nathan Okun´s formula´s, ca. 1.4" plating (plate quality doesn´t matter, even if laminated) will reliably set off the fuse of a 14in APC at 0 deg. impact obliquity, dropping to 0.98" at 61 deg obliquity. thus 35mm at the given angle of fall would certainly be enough to set off a properly working base fuse as long as the projectile isn´t blind or a dud.
But then again, as You mentioned, the traverse distance travelled in the bow was not long enough to give a reasonable liklyhood for any projectile with ca. 0.025 sec, nominal fuse delay to explode inside the bow at the high velocities of the impact condition.
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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby delcyros » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:31 pm

edit: another metric problem encountered with salvo 8. I once more repost the corrected graph and tabulated entries for each salvo:
You better check & doublecheck...

Image
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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby Serg » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:41 pm

It seems Bismarck's secondary battery simply forgotten in battle reports. So how good was her secondary at DS? How many 150mm shells were fired by Bismarck?
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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby José M. Rico » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:13 pm

Serg wrote:It seems Bismarck's secondary battery simply forgotten in battle reports. So how good was her secondary at DS? How many 150mm shells were fired by Bismarck?

Bismarck secondary battery opened fire at about 0558 hours on the Prince of Wales. I don't think it fired more than 40-50 shells overall but this is just a guess. The British didn't report any other hits than the already known from 15 and 8-inch shells, so it seems there were no hits from the secondary battery, or if there were the damage must have been insignificant. What would be the effect of a small 5.9-inch shell striking a heavy 13-15-inch armored plate?
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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby paulcadogan » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:00 am

José M. Rico wrote:Serg wrote:
It seems Bismarck's secondary battery simply forgotten in battle reports. So how good was her secondary at DS? How many 150mm shells were fired by Bismarck?
Bismarck secondary battery opened fire at about 0558 hours on the Prince of Wales. I don't think it fired more than 40-50 shells overall but this is just a guess. The British didn't report any other hits than the already known from 15 and 8-inch shells, so it seems there were no hits from the secondary battery, or if there were the damage must have been insignificant. What would be the effect of a small 5.9-inch shell striking a heavy 13-15-inch armored plate?


In The Bismarck Episode Russell Grenfell's description of PoW's experience of incoming shells includes Bismarck's secondaries:

...A towering wall of water leapt out of the sea close at hand where a 15-in. salvo had landed. It was swiftly followed by the slightly smaller splashes of the Bismarck's secondary armament (5.9)-in. shells, salvoes of which, mingling with and scarcely distinguishable from those of Prinz Eugen's 8-in., began to fall one on top of the other with whirlwing rapidity about every ten to fifteen seconds. The din was tremendous, the rush and crash of the enemy's shells combining with the roar and banging of the Prince of Wales' heavy and light guns and the hiss of falling spray from nearby shell splashes to make what seemed a continuous deluge of sound.


Esmond Knight, in a description of the battle, recalled hearing the cracks of high explosive shells detonating in the air overhead with splinters raining onto the decks before the shell that struck the PoW's bridge knocked him senseless and blinded him. I don't know if Bismarck's or PE's HE shells had the capability to explode in the air....
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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:44 pm

Ciao all,

also Geoffrey Brooke, an Officer on board HMS Prince of Wales on his book " ALARM Starboard " made a good re-construction of those crucial minutes.

http://www.amazon.com/Alarm-Starboard-G ... 1844152308

although some memories were a bit mixed up on timing when compared to the official Hood board of inquiry reports,and it is absolutely normal, this book is highly reccomended.

Than we have Esmond Knight and Sam Wood memories too.

On german side we do have the same problems with survivor memories versus offficial kriegsmarine documents, so it is a common factor to deal with.

Lucky us now we have all those sources available and by matching them all on a pragmatic way one can see the reality, with due tolerances of course.

Bye Antonio :D
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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby RF » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:10 pm

José M. Rico wrote:[
What would be the effect of a small 5.9-inch shell striking a heavy 13-15-inch armored plate?


There are two interesting questions here.

Firstly do we have any report from the second gunnery officer or any plot of the splashes from the 5.9 inch shells, as presumably these guns were under a central fire control?

Secondly we do have some record of the six inch fire from Rodney on 27 May, where straddles and hits were observed on Bismarck. The battle damage therefrom seems less clear. But it is known that an 8 inch shell from Norfolk knocked out Bismarck's main fire control. So the significance of 5.9 inch fire is where it hits a target outside the protection of the main armour belt - and clearly it can do some damage. Suppose that the hit on the compass platform of POW had instead been a 5.9 inch shell which exploded. Would it have taken out Captain Leach, or the first officer? Suppose it had prevented the order for POW to break off the action from being given - leaving POW temporarily leaderless at a crucial moment?
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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby delcyros » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:56 pm

5.91in firing on HMS PRINCE OF WALES would not have used APC but nose- or base fused HE instead. This is prooven by Unterlagen zur Bestimmung der Hauptkampfentfernung und Geschosswahl. Such a shell would be unlikely to leave much traces on the thick cementated main belt or other, face hardened structures of more than 4in thickness.

However, there is -in my mind- some liklyhood that one or both portside strikes aft on PRINCE OF WALES are rather 5.91in HE base fused than 8in APC/base fused HE. There is the account of Jaspar, who as the go of PRINZ EUGEN states:
"I observed two portside strikes, which again were fired by BISMARCK´s secondary". In fact, knowing the german original, this is a minor mistranslation. The correct translation would emphasize the doubt expressed by Jaspar because both ships targeted PoW:
"I observed two portside strikes, which may have been fired by Bismarck´s secondaries".

The after action damage evaluation on HMS PRINCE OF WALES considered these two hits on the far waterline aft to be either 5.91in or 8in, thus it was found to be impossible to assess the damage to either calibre in a definite way. I don´t know when authors started to attribute them exclusively to 8in, though, but it happened.
Some evidence comes from the delay action of these projectiles. Both were rather short delay, as prooven by the short distance travelled by them before exploding. In fact, both projectiles traversed just enough to completely penetrate. An 8in APC using nominal 0.035 sec. fuse delay is likely to pass a lot more distance before blowing up at the given striking velocity (=1550 to 1700 fps) corresponding to the given range of 14,000 to 16,000 yard. Most likely is a distance of 50 to 60 ft for anything close to nominal fuse delay. A nose fused projectile has to be excluded in any case, they were instantiously fused and would detonate completely before the projectile´s nose would make contact with the outer shell plate. Thus only APC or base fused HE is possible.
The base fused HE has a variable delay element, which ranges from non delay (almost instantiously, ca. 0.003 sec. to 0.006 sec) to 0.01 sec., 0.025 sec and 0.035sec. The corresponding distance travelled is for a striking velkocity of 1000 to 1060 fps is much better fitting the damage report (=5ft; 10ft; 26ft or 36ft max).
Further evidence can be assembled by assessing the damage picture much like Rob Lundgren did with SOUTH DAKOTA in it´s engagement with KRISHIMA. It was always considered that these two hit´s were blowign up low order, but authors are forced to this explenation in case You attribute both hits to 8in APC / 8in base fused HE. It´s not necessary to explain them as low order objects if You really consider 5.91in base fused HE, a much more likely alternative in my personal opinion.
Finally, while the entry holes have dimensions largely corresponding to 8in Projectiles, this in my mind rules 8in out. It requires rather thick armour plating to ensure just calibre sized holes in trials conducted 1908 to 1912 from a number of RMA sources. Otherwise the entryhole is always a lot larger than the projectile diameter. In 1912 this was one of the reasons of the retention of german 100mm KC belts at the GK´s far aterline end belts, they deliberately wanted an as small as possible entry hole for calibre penetrations.It was considered that a KC plate thickness of at least 1/3 cal. was required to ensure cal. sized holes. There was, however, little plating and armour engaged by these two hits on the far waterline aft.

Then again, it´s only an interpretation made by myselve based on aviable evidence, not a definitive case for one or two 5.91in hits.
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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby Serg » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:36 pm

Thanks for your thoughts and info.
It is known that the Derflinger at Jutland fired full 150mm salvos between main battery half-salvos about 7 secs apart (two salvos per 20 sec). So it possible suppose that the Bismarck also fired two salvos in intervals due to interference with main battery (like Scharnhorst vs Glorious&Ardent). The source mentioned above confirm rapid salvo fire by 150mm battery, every ten to fifteen seconds. Here we have for secondary the start time 0558 (fourth main caliber salvo) and the cease time 0610 (thirteenth main caliber salvo). Then in total I guess about 9x4 full 150mm salvos, i.e about 200 shells (let's say, minus 10% missfires) were fired against PoW.
For comparison PE has spent 157 shells in 6 salvos against Hood (at least one hit) and 17 on PoW (~109 shells and 4 hits as usually asserts). It seems strange that she scored 4 hits per 100+ 203mm shells and Bismarck zero per 200+.

About hits. The main question: were 150mm shells base or nose fused. Of course, it unlikely that the nose fused shells can penetrate behind plating. It seems also that the both shells were from single straddle because they landed close together. Then more likely it was 150mm straddle with 6 guns in salvo than 203mm with four guns.
Unfortunately the size of the entry hole depends on impact angle, and trajectory also unknown.

I am not good with english context here, what means "portside strikes" in this case? Maybe falling into water near portside? And there exactly was mentioned PoW's PORTSIDE, not starboard?
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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby RF » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:15 pm

delcyros wrote:The after action damage evaluation on HMS PRINCE OF WALES considered these two hits on the far waterline aft to be either 5.91in or 8in, thus it was found to be impossible to assess the damage to either calibre in a definite way. I don´t know when authors started to attribute them exclusively to 8in, though, but it happened.


One of the shells was recovered intact as it failed to explode, and thrown overboard - and recorded as 8 inch.
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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby delcyros » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:44 pm

Neither of the two hits mentioned was recovered, both detonated.
The 8in recovered intact was the one ending in a shell handling room of P 5.25in battery and recorded beeing of 8in size. But I don´t think that this shell can be used to determine the calibre of both waterline aft hits because it isn´t related to these impact in the first place.
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Re: Total number of shells fired by Bismarck and straddles

Postby RF » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:05 pm

Agreed, but I think that was where the assumption of the two underwater hits being 8 inch came from, especially thinking as the 5.91 inch impact on a KGV would probably not cause such damage as was caused.
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